Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Communist Gipsy

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Localisation : Финляндия

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:41 pm

- Last edited by on Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

Helena

Age : 17
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 139
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:12 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

One month is enough not only to conquer Estonia but also to destroy all important object in your country.

Before the WWII Poland had signed two similar pacts with France and the UK and we all know how they behaved... NATO should be ready to help almost immediately otherwise in your case opposition is pointless. If you must then fight the wars that you can win (if you know that invaders want to control your country rather to destroy your nation itself).

If you stand up against Russia alone, you need to be aware that they would destroy much of infrastructure and kill plenty of your people. Such outcome would be a real threat to existence of such small nation, plus economic catastrophe. So either NATO doing something quickly or you should abandon costly resistance.

As I understand, you recommend us not to defend ourselves. Therefore sorry, but your suggestions about professional army can't be taken seriously. In your opinion, as much as I understand, there is no difference if we have it or not.

Destroying our nation would take place one way or another. Or maybe you have forgot the deportations and mass murders that took place in 40s?
This time they would be even worse because Estonians have shown (first when becoming independent and secondly in the April 2007 and after that) that they can cause trouble. This time Russia would end up our existence entirely.

Economic catastrophe would also come - look what state we had before Soviet occupation and after that.

But I agree about the soldiers who wanted to come back. They can't be trusted in anything important any more - what if they "changed their mind" about how important their task was, too?
They new they were going to war. How can they complain about safety? War is never safe.

Hypno wrote:

I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily. They could remove most of our resistance without even launching a ground assault).

Face it, Russia has never got us in some days when we have resisted. Examples: Vabadussõda ~1918 (we won that one), WWII (true, we fought together with Germans).

Air forces alone don't take anything. They can destroy and cause damage but the land forces are those that take a land. Besides, planes and helicopters can be shot down.

Of course, if we have a loser's mentality, there are few things that can help us.

Rzeczpospolita

Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:26 am

International Hate wrote:

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

IHowever I have heard some comments that American hummers are not safe as well, because this is hardly possible to achieve.

btw has the rosomak seen any action in Afghanistan? It has probably more armor than hummer. although an IED can blow up even a MBT if it's big enough as seen in Iraq

Rosomaks are there but I don't know any details. I'm not very much interested in Iraq/Afghanistan adventures.

Helena wrote:

As I understand, you recommend us not to defend ourselves. Therefore sorry, but your suggestions about professional army can't be taken seriously. In your opinion, as much as I understand, there is no difference if we have it or not.

Estonian army have sense only if they are professionals and have good agreement with NATO. The only purpose of existence of this organization is to protect member countries. So military help should be provided very quickly, a month or two sounds like bad joke. One would think that they have no real strategy planned for such occasion.

Quote:

Destroying our nation would take place one way or another. Or maybe you have forgot the deportations and mass murders that took place in 40s?

S..t happens sometimes and there is little you can do with this. The goal is to survive and continue Estonian national culture not heroically perish on the battlefield. So if you cannot stand alone against Russia you need to be smart rather than aggressive. If you would resist military in Soviet Union then they would totally destroy you at all. Estonia would not be independent today.

For example during WWII, people of Warsaw raised against German occupation because leaders of Polish underground bought Soviet promise of quick help. Soviets could do this but preferred to wait till Germans wipe us out and completely raze the city to the ground. Outcome? 250.000 of Poles in Warsaw perished, because leaders made wrong decision. If this would happen in Tallinn, how many Estonians would left? And this is only one city.

Helena

Age : 17
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 139
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:07 am

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

Helena wrote:

As I understand, you recommend us not to defend ourselves. Therefore sorry, but your suggestions about professional army can't be taken seriously. In your opinion, as much as I understand, there is no difference if we have it or not.

Estonian army have sense only if they are professionals and have good agreement with NATO. The only purpose of existence of this organization is to protect member countries. So military help should be provided very quickly, a month or two sounds like bad joke. One would think that they have no real strategy planned for such occasion.

Well that explained a lot when you said our army's only reason to exist is to protect another countries. We have it for different purpose and we are trying to create an army that would work.
We need to have first defence. NATO could never bring a big army here in 48 hours - this is the time in which Russia could invade all country if there would be no fight like you suggest. If they were well-organized they could do it faster. If they had already settled themselves down on the coast, they would destroy all possible help coming from the air or over the sea. Even if there were any battles later, much more people would die in them.

And as next time you are probably going to say:

a) we don't need our own country and we should become one with Russia volunteerly because otherwise there might be a military problem with it in the future;
b) we should assimilate with Russians because otherwise much people would die;

- well, I'm sorry but I must refuse.

Quote:

S..t happens sometimes and there is little you can do with this. The goal is to survive and continue Estonian national culture not heroically perish on the battlefield.

What kind of natural culture can people have if it has a slave's mentality? National culture is based on national dignity. The self pride and culture Estonians have now is based on the fact that we have always tried to fight. What kind of dignity would we have after giving in volunteerly? We and our culture would just die out: like Votes, like Ingerians, like Livonians who didn't resist. How many peoples have died out because of war? As much as I know, Armenians, Chechens and Abkhazians still live and their culture is as strong as it can be.

Sorry but you really make me angry with your suggestions about how we should be like stupid sheep taken to the slaughter house. It's hard to believe that there is a Polish who, as can be seen, would give in anyone who'd try to invade and let his people be slaughtered without even trying to stop it.

Rzeczpospolita

Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:36 pm

Helena wrote:

Well that explained a lot when you said our army's only reason to exist is to protect another countries.

I did not write anything like this. You have some obligations toward NATO and this is all. Estonian troops would not rescue any country anyway.

Quote:

We need to have first defence. NATO could never bring a big army here in 48 hours - this is the time in which Russia could invade all country if there would be no fight like you suggest. If they were well-organized they could do it faster. If they had already settled themselves down on the coast, they would destroy all possible help coming from the air or over the sea. Even if there were any battles later, much more people would die in them.

If NATO countries are engaged in Iraq, Afghanistan, Balkans, Africa and God only know where else then indeed they are unable to react quickly (don't need to be exactly 48 hours). This is why I don't really believe to NATO and their willingness to fight Russia because of some small Eastern European countries. NATO should concentrate on strictly defensive activity and have plans to react on all probable eventualities.

Quote:

What kind of natural culture can people have if it has a slave's mentality? National culture is based on national dignity. The self pride and culture Estonians have now is based on the fact that we have always tried to fight. What kind of dignity would we have after giving in volunteerly? We and our culture would just die out: like Votes, like Ingerians, like Livonians who didn't resist. How many peoples have died out because of war? As much as I know, Armenians, Chechens and Abkhazians still live and their culture is as strong as it can be.

This have nothing to do with slave mentality, because you continue to cultivate your culture and there is no love to occupiers. This is motivated by pure calculation, because death people have neither pride or dignity. Also you don't give up your independence voluntary but because you are forced to do so.

Armenians still exist because they gave up their independence to Russia, this is a fact. Before they were regularly slaughtered by Muslims. In longer run their calculation was profitable because they still exist and they are even independent.

About Abhazs, this is hard to talk about one culture if some are Muslims and some are Orthodox. This is very small nation with consisted minority (to Georgians with are also small nation after all). even in Abkhazia itself

Chechen population was drastically reduced during the wars. The country was destroyed, economy ruined, poverty is common. Finally they are still under Moscow and are ruled by Chechen pro-Kremlin thug Ahkmed Kadyrov. If they would won they would be ruled by some Islamic fanatics. What exactly do you wish to transfer to Estonia from their fate?

Quote:

Sorry but you really make me angry with your suggestions about how we should be like stupid sheep taken to the slaughter house. It's hard to believe that there is a Polish who, as can be seen, would give in anyone who'd try to invade and let his people be slaughtered without even trying to stop it.

I don't know why you constantly claim that Russia would wish to wipe out all Estonians. The most probably the reason would be to control transportation of all kind of Russian goods to the west via Baltic sea or because they would consider extension of their Baltic coast strategically necessary from military point of view.

Helena

Age : 17
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 139
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:53 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

Helena wrote:

Well that explained a lot when you said our army's only reason to exist is to protect another countries.

I did not write anything like this. You have some obligations toward NATO and this is all. Estonian troops would not rescue any country anyway.

That's your opinion. It was opinion of many people before we won the Freedom War in 1918-1920. If everybody would have thought about like "we will never beat great Russia and it's netter not to try and have our own country" we wouldn't be free. If people don't have their own country, they and their culture are going to fade.

Quote:

If NATO countries are engaged in Iraq, Afghanistan, Balkans, Africa and God only know where else then indeed they are unable to react quickly (don't need to be exactly 48 hours). This is why I don't really believe to NATO and their willingness to fight Russia because of some small Eastern European countries. NATO should concentrate on strictly defensive activity and have plans to react on all probable eventualities.

I agree with the last point. At the moment we luckily don't have clear and present danger.

Quote:

This have nothing to do with slave mentality, because you continue to cultivate your culture and there is no love to occupiers. This is motivated by pure calculation, because death people have neither pride or dignity. Also you don't give up your independence voluntary but because you are forced to do so.

We were not forced. It would be our own decision if we gave in or resisted. By the way, death is not worst thing ever.

Quote:

I don't know why you constantly claim that Russia would wish to wipe out all Estonians. The most probably the reason would be to control transportation of all kind of Russian goods to the west via Baltic sea or because they would consider extension of their Baltic coast strategically necessary from military point of view.

Wouldn't you wish too wipe us off if you were Putin? We have caused so much problems with our fractiousness that there is no point in saving such people. It would be much easier to deport some of us to Siberia, kill the ones who were left over and take in people from Russia. Russia could keep our land for ever and everyone would be happy.

Basicly, I think we should quit that argument because we are not about the topic any more (which one is better to defend Estonia, professional army or time service) but about if we should give up volunteerly which is absolutely ridicoulus and, to be truthful, makes me sick.

Hypno
Intelligent member

Age : 19
Joined : 15 May 2007
Posts : 192
Localisation : Kuressaare, Estonia

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:13 pm

Helena wrote:

Face it, Russia has never got us in some days when we have resisted. Examples: Vabadussõda ~1918 (we won that one), WWII (true, we fought together with Germans).

The freedom war was at a time where Russia was weakened by civil war (reds against whites) and could not deploy much troops to bother with us. If not, they would have overrun us easily.

In WWII they fled before the Germans. If all Estonians would have sit in home and no men would have joined the nazis, they would have still fled.

Helen wrote:

Air forces alone don't take anything. They can destroy and cause damage but the land forces are those that take a land. Besides, planes and helicopters can be shot down.

We don't have enough ammunition to shoot down half the Russian air force, if most of the shots would hit the target. They could probably bomb half our atm active ground forces in the night before most of the privates would get up from their beds.

Helena wrote:

Of course, if we have a loser's mentality, there are few things that can help us.

You mean like when we accepted the 'Baaside Leping' (Base Contract, by which the Soviet forces were allowed to Estonian soil before WWII) without resistance? If yes, than imo thats the only reason there still are Estonians in the world.

Helena wrote:

As much as I know, Armenians, Chechens and Abkhazians still live and their culture is as strong as it can be.

As much as I know:
Armenia has GDP per capita 3 times smaller than we do (we are 42nd, 115th); They are 93rd in Corruption Preceptions Index (2006), while we were 24th; They are 80th in Human Development Index, while we are 40th. Tho they are improving, as far as I know.
Chechnya is not an independent country, is ravaged by war, unemployment and poverty and I don't know a thing about their culture. If they have any.
Abkhazia is independent only de facto, not recognized by any country or international organization. Most of it is basically under Russian control (Russia pays social moneys, supplies passports, etc, etc) and as far as I have heard, situation there is not better than chechnyans, only that they are in no armed conflict.

Looking at the notes above, only Armenia sounds like a place I'd want to live in rather than the SU.
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Helena

Age : 17
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 139
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:57 pm

Hypno wrote:

Helena wrote:

Face it, Russia has never got us in some days when we have resisted. Examples: Vabadussõda ~1918 (we won that one), WWII (true, we fought together with Germans).

The freedom war was at a time where Russia was weakened by civil war (reds against whites) and could not deploy much troops to bother with us. If not, they would have overrun us easily.

We were also much weaker than we are now, we had basicly nothing but some old guns and things we had taken from Russians. Their equipment was even better than ours and in numbers they could also defeat us.

Quote:

In WWII they fled before the Germans. If all Estonians would have sit in home and no men would have joined the nazis, they would have still fled.

But they couldn't defeat us in three days as you said.
If we could resist for that long period, NATO could get here easily.

Hypno wrote:

Helena wrote:

Air forces alone don't take anything. They can destroy and cause damage but the land forces are those that take a land. Besides, planes and helicopters can be shot down.

We don't have enough ammunition to shoot down half the Russian air force, if most of the shots would hit the target. They could probably bomb half our atm active ground forces in the night before most of the privates would get up from their beds.

You can't close an army because of lack of ammunition. It's to be bought.
That bombing is quite a serious problem. I think we should improve our radar system (we still have 4-5 holes in it), complete the Ämari military airport so NATO fighters could stay there and get some personal fighters, too. There should be more rackets of air defence and they should be settled closer to the boarder.

Hypno wrote:

Helena wrote:

Of course, if we have a loser's mentality, there are few things that can help us.

You mean like when we accepted the 'Baaside Leping' (Base Contract, by which the Soviet forces were allowed to Estonian soil before WWII) without resistance? If yes, than imo thats the only reason there still are Estonians in the world.

Who says so? As much as I've read, we had much better equipment before the 1939 than we have now. We had a decent army and acceptable fleet, included some submarines. There would have been a great chance to defend ourselves. Especially because Finnish people also fought for their freedom and it's hard for a country, even for Russia to have war with two enemies at the same time.

Helena wrote:

As much as I know, Armenians, Chechens and Abkhazians still live and their culture is as strong as it can be.

As much as I know:
Armenia has GDP per capita 3 times smaller than we do (we are 42nd, 115th); They are 93rd in Corruption Preceptions Index (2006), while we were 24th; They are 80th in Human Development Index, while we are 40th. Tho they are improving, as far as I know.
Chechnya is not an independent country, is ravaged by war, unemployment and poverty and I don't know a thing about their culture. If they have any.
Abkhazia is independent only de facto, not recognized by any country or international organization. Most of it is basically under Russian control (Russia pays social moneys, supplies passports, etc, etc) and as far as I have heard, situation there is not better than chechnyans, only that they are in no armed conflict.[/quote]
As I said, they haven't died out because of the war. I haven't say there's a good situation there.
Armenia. We had about as bad economic situation when we left the Soviet Union.
Chechnya would maybe still be free if they hadn't attacked Dagestan.
Abkhazians haven't died out, either. They are improving though I'm afraid of them because their only ally is Russia.

Rzeczpospolita

Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:59 am

Helena wrote:

Wouldn't you wish too wipe us off if you were Putin? We have caused so much problems with our fractiousness that there is no point in saving such people. It would be much easier to deport some of us to Siberia, kill the ones who were left over and take in people from Russia. Russia could keep our land for ever and everyone would be happy.

No, I would not. Your perspective is very Eesti-centric.

Quote:

By the way, death is not worst thing ever.

You can do what you want with your own life but a leader is responsible for whole nation and must be coolheaded.

Quote:

Basicly, I think we should quit that argument because we are not about the topic any more (which one is better to defend Estonia, professional army or time service) but about if we should give up volunteerly which is absolutely ridicoulus and, to be truthful, makes me sick.

I have made all my arguments clear and have nothing to add. What I would like to know is the attitude of Estonian population in general to professional army. Do you know any surveys have been made on this issue?

towito

Age : 28
Joined : 02 Jul 2007
Posts : 112
Localisation : Poland, Legionowo

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:51 pm

3 months of tome service would be enough to give some backgrounds about weapons and using it I think it would be necessery nobody knows how future will be looking like. And along this well equiped, modern proffesional army. Both systems would be good i think.

Helena

Age : 17
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 139
Localisation : Eesti/Estonia, Tallinn

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:12 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

Helena wrote:

Wouldn't you wish too wipe us off if you were Putin? We have caused so much problems with our fractiousness that there is no point in saving such people. It would be much easier to deport some of us to Siberia, kill the ones who were left over and take in people from Russia. Russia could keep our land for ever and everyone would be happy.

No, I would not. Your perspective is very Eesti-centric.

Of course they would do the same with other small conquered nations.

Quote:

I have made all my arguments clear and have nothing to add. What I would like to know is the attitude of Estonian population in general to professional army. Do you know any surveys have been made on this issue?

The surveys have been made and about 70-80% of Estonians support popular draft.

towito wrote:

3 months of tome service would be enough to give some backgrounds about weapons and using it I think it would be necessery nobody knows how future will be looking like. And along this well equiped, modern proffesional army. Both systems would be good I think.

I basicly agree but I think that there should be some more months to work over and learn to act in bigger units. The bigger practical trainings also take place later. If we keep the time too short, soldiers will forget soon what they have learnt.

I found a good text about Estonian self-defence written by a renowned security expert of America: http://www.postimees.ee/011206/esileht/siseuudised/231824.php .
I'd like to translate it but I don't have time at the moment.

Estonski

Joined : 26 Jul 2007
Posts : 13

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:25 pm

Ive read oppinions of people of the estonian military. Professional army is a bull i agree. Now, popular draft, maybe. About war with Russia. We would get overran in few days. Our situation can be compared to Egypt when they had the 6-day war with Israel. Israel bombed most of their air force before they could even takeoff. Then that followed a 5 day ground conflict that brought small casualties to both sides, but basically Israel overran them. The Russian technology vs. estonian technology is like a huge elephant and an ant. Russia has planes that cant be seen by radars. If they use those, we can forget about any radar systems. Our military bases will be bombed, they cut off electricity from Narva (most of our energy comes from there), they bomb our cities to the ground. If it is winter, people will die from hunger. Many people will escape to other countries, including the ones supposed to be drafted. By the time we are occupied, NATO makes a meeting and talks about the war in estonia blalblalba. Then it makes a few warnings to russia... and then its over for a free estonia. So simple it is. Or russia drops a nuke on tallinn. No one does a flying fuck.

NowhereMan

Age : 25
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 350
Localisation : Russia

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:51 pm

And then we can throw some snowballs at you

Estonski

Joined : 26 Jul 2007
Posts : 13

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:05 pm

Oh no, then the Beslan hostage drama will be repeated hundreds of times..

NowhereMan

Age : 25
Joined : 17 May 2007
Posts : 350
Localisation : Russia

Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:15 pm

Estonski wrote:

Oh no, then the Beslan hostage drama will be repeated hundreds of times..

???