| Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army |    |
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Kiskun
Age : 21
Joined : 20 May 2007
Posts : 319
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
|  Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army  Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:51 pm | |
| | Estonski wrote: | Ive read oppinions of people of the estonian military.
Professional army is a bull i agree.
Now, popular draft, maybe.
About war with Russia.
We would get overran in few days.
Our situation can be compared to Egypt when they had the 6-day war with Israel.
Israel bombed most of their air force before they could even takeoff.
Then that followed a 5 day ground conflict that brought small casualties to both sides, but basically Israel overran them.
The Russian technology vs. estonian technology is like a huge elephant and an ant.
Russia has planes that cant be seen by radars. If they use those, we can forget about any radar systems. Our military bases will be bombed, they cut off electricity from Narva (most of our energy comes from there), they bomb our cities to the ground. If it is winter, people will die from hunger.
Many people will escape to other countries, including the ones supposed to be drafted. By the time we are occupied, NATO makes a meeting and talks about the war in estonia blalblalba.
Then it makes a few warnings to russia... and then its over for a free estonia.
So simple it is.
Or russia drops a nuke on tallinn. No one does a flying fuck. |
Suur Töll will help you Estonians  |
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svybski
Joined : 31 Jul 2007
Posts : 59
| | Subject: keep on defending Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:33 am | |
| | Hypno wrote: | | I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily. |
no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..
you will always support from the friendly countries, together we could win, right?  |
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Kiskun
Age : 21
Joined : 20 May 2007
Posts : 319
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:52 pm | |
| | telkola wrote: | | Hypno wrote: | | I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily. |
no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..
you will always support from the friendly countries, together we could win, right? |
We should rather keep on living peacefully and solve problems through discussing them. |
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svybski
Joined : 31 Jul 2007
Posts : 59
| | Subject: true peace Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:51 pm | |
| | Kiskun wrote: |
We should rather keep on living peacefully and solve problems through discussing them. |
no, defending is more peaceful than not defending. If you not defend your country, you actually maintain war-like situation by giving possibility to the bad/evil/low-life people to enslave you. Only after freedom is achieved, you have a real peace.
if discussions (politics) fail, you have to defend. If you lay down your arms, you fail your own people and that is the most embarrassing thing of all.
as history teaches us, russia (the country) have not respected peace, but im sure that most people in europe/asia (including those russians, who are intelligent) do respect peace and peacuful discussions you mentioned.
we havent seen that in chechnya and many parts of russia, where freedom is suppressed by evil forces. |
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Rzeczpospolita
Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:53 pm | |
| | telkola wrote: | | Hypno wrote: | | I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily. |
no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..
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Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible
You can count on them  |
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svybski
Joined : 31 Jul 2007
Posts : 59
| | Subject: not all UN Sat Aug 04, 2007 10:26 am | |
| | Rzeczpospolita wrote: |
Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible
You can count on them |
dont over-generalize or stereotypize.. it is not like all UN troops do that.
and this has nothing to do with protecting Estonia. |
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«Trayus»
Age : 17
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 193
Localisation : Poland, Gorzów Wielkopolski
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:49 pm | |
| | telkola wrote: | | Rzeczpospolita wrote: |
Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible
You can count on them |
dont over-generalize or stereotypize.. it is not like all UN troops do that. |
Aye, stereotypes are baaad.  |
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Rzeczpospolita
Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:29 pm | |
| | I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions. |
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Kiskun
Age : 21
Joined : 20 May 2007
Posts : 319
Localisation : Hungary, Kecskemét
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:36 pm | |
| | Rzeczpospolita wrote: | | I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions. |
I had possibility, but I missed it. |
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«Trayus»
Age : 17
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 193
Localisation : Poland, Gorzów Wielkopolski
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:03 pm | |
| | Rzeczpospolita wrote: | | I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions. |
No, I haven't.  |
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Rzeczpospolita
Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:26 pm | |
| | Very good film, I recommend. |
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svybski
Joined : 31 Jul 2007
Posts : 59
| | Subject: yes i have Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:26 pm | |
| | Rzeczpospolita wrote: | | I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions. |
yes I have watched. Really good film!!
for me it is the best southern european movie (expect some italian porn.. umm.. I mean: horror movies )...
ok, ok... I understand what you mean. UN troops have this "quality problem" yes.
but the original idea was that, eventhough estonia (or any ex-ussr country or Finland etc.) cant totally defend itself against big army, we (small countries) can protect ourselves together. NATO is one way to achieve mutual protection.. |
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Rzeczpospolita
Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:17 pm | |
| Everything dependent from the UN has such quality problems and what is more lack of will to archive aimed goals. But this is another matter
I will open a thread about good films from different countries.  |
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matrixx
Age : 29
Joined : 21 May 2007
Posts : 19
Localisation : Estonia
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:31 pm | |
| Coming from a different thread, I will clarify my view of having or not having an army.
Basic reason for war nowadays is economical. You want to weaken your opponent's situation, while improving yours (crusades are a thing of past). Politics give an excuse for war - be it dethroning a dictator or protecting some lesser national group - but those are only excuses. If there's nothing to be gained from war it won't happen - there are other means of pressurizing countries also.
About an army and required conscription. Large nations can get away with an all-voluntary professional army - there are enough people to volunteer. Small countries don't have usuall enough volunteers - so they must resort to other means. That's why I say Swiss way would be the way to go for Estonia. Small professional army core for participating in international operations and coordinate local so-called people's army. It's easy to wipe out an army if it is concentrated in few places, but if the entire country is part of the defensive system and in every city/town there are miliraty organizations - consisting of local men - it get's much tougher to subdue them. Estonia could never hope to repel Russia if that would decide to invade us - what we can do is to make it cost a lot. Drive the cost of the war too high and they will retreat or try to find other solutions. Only way to do that, for Estonia, is to have strong militia - non-regular army. I must admit the current system is seriously lacking. We don't have big enough professional army and the militia (Kaitseliit in estonian) is not working good enough due to various political reasons.
The thing about that 'not all are able to be a soldier'. True - in the sense of being a professional soldier, participating in international operations etc. But what excuse would there to be to *not* be able to defend your country? Can you call yourself a man when the first thought about war is how to get away and fast? I doubt it. |
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Rzeczpospolita
Age : 27
Joined : 08 Jun 2007
Posts : 390
Localisation : Gdansk, Poland
| | Subject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:05 am | |
| | matrixx wrote: |
Estonia could never hope to repel Russia if that would decide to invade us - what we can do is to make it cost a lot. Drive the cost of the war too high and they will retreat or try to find other solutions.
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If Russia would retreat from Estonia, they would become a joke forever.  Forget it. Don't you see how they retreating from mountainous Chechnya? How long Soviets sat in mountainous Afghanistan? Cost doesn't matter, they will increase the price of oil and gas exports if necessary. And Estonia is flat.
| Quote: | | Can you call yourself a man when the first thought about war is how to get away and fast? I doubt it. |
How I see this. The duty of Estonian people is to preserve the existence of the nation in the best possible shape. Estonian man are obligated to stand up against enemy if there is a chance for victory. For example Russia attacked and NATO counter attacked, or you have been invaded by Latvia  . If there is no reasonable chance for victory, they should abandon military opposition. To sacrifice life and future of your family without sense is poor business. Better wait for proper opportunity to get rid of occupant and cultivate national tradition in the meantime. |
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