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 United Kingdom vs Russia

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Helena

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PostSubject: United Kingdom vs Russia   Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:30 pm

Now, after murder of Litvinenko that took place in London, the authorities of Britain have done researches and accuse a man called Lugovoi of the murder. Therefore they demanded Russian authorities to give Lugovoi out to the UK. Russia officially refused and the UK sent four Russian diplomates out of the country. Russia has already threatened that this action is going to have serious consequeses.

What do you think about the situation? Who's right, who's wrong? What will happen in the future?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:16 am

You can find a good discussion here.
http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=6856&start=0&tstart=0&&%25EF%25BF%25BDpaginator&edition=2&ttl=20070718060719
As for my opinion, I haven't got any... We don't know the truth (and will never know), so no one can say for sure.. All these guys look quite ugly to me and I'm only worried about possible problems with obtainig UK visas.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 1:31 pm

I think Russia (goverment, secret service) play dirty game. People die in strange circumstances, nobody see nothing, Russia pretend that nothing happend. Itis disguisting. We know why that they died, and we know that Kreml knows who killed. I will remind you hunting on ppolish diplomatists some time ago. It was organized, planned action, which was "answer" for some accident in Poland. Soviets are spiteful.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:38 pm

towito wrote:
I think Russia (goverment, secret service) play dirty game. People die in strange circumstances, nobody see nothing, Russia pretend that nothing happend. Itis disguisting. We know why that they died, and we know that Kreml knows who killed. I will remind you hunting on ppolish diplomatists some time ago. It was organized, planned action, which was "answer" for some accident in Poland. Soviets are spiteful.

We do not know why Litvinenko was killed. Kremlin knows who killed him and why, and British authorities know, but what's the use of raising the row? Both sides seem to be more interested in political posturing and 'name calling' rather than talking, which will achieve nothing. So it's not about democracy, poor Litvineko family or justice. Russia plays dirty game, eh? I agree, but so does the UK. I'm not protecting Russian authorities at the moment - I'm just trying to be objective. Both sides are very wrong here... Look what british parliament says. "Russia has to do this, Russia has to do that, they have to change their constitution.." I beg your pardon? Can you imagine duma telling british parliament what to do? (actually we can, but we all know the following reaction of the world) It's outrageous. Some hot heads here been talking a lot about changing the constitution so Putin could stay the president forever. Idiots. It is so important now for Russia to keep the low as it is, unshakeble... And now the "democratic society" tell us to change it just because it'll be more convinient for them. Sounds a bit hypocritic to me.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:03 pm

British-Russian relation were never too close as far as I know. Recently Brits allowed Russian oligarchy to invest in the UK and protect them from being deported. Also Akhmed Zakayev, Chechen minister living over there and probably some other important Chechen expats. Add politically active former KGB agents like Litvinenko and Grigorjevski. So this question for sure caused irritation in Moscow.

Hypocrisy of Kremlin is well known and don't need any special comment I think... Well, perhaps I should mention that some British oil company (BP?) lost its right to explore some Russian oil resources.

Few years ago we expelled some Russian diplomats from Poland as well, later Russian did the same. I have heard theory that this is better to not expell such agents if you keep an eye on them carefully. Later your opponent will do the same with your agents. Finally whole game begins once again anyway.

I would wish to know what you people think about Litvinenko himself?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:20 pm

Quote :
I would wish to know what you people think about Litvinenko himself?

He wasn't a good man and i don't pity him. He worked for KGB, and everybody knows it's not easy to get there. One has to prove his loyalty, that he is the same bustard as everybody in the company, and only then he'll be allowed to work there. Litvineko did. He worked for Berezovski then. Not the nicest person in the world too. He acted like a bitch all the time.. And Logovoi isn't better. They eat each other like snakes or spiders What a Face hope they all die.
And british goverment allows all those freaks to live in London as long as they spend the money they had stolen from Russian people. How "democratic" this is! Evil or Very Mad
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:09 pm

You need to try to analyze the problem from British perspective. They don't feel obligated to play fair with Russia because they know that Russia wont play fair with them anyway. So they do what is profitable for British economy. Anyway from Russian perspective this is just a small problem. The really big issue is why Putin allows all those oligarchs whom still remained in Russia to be free and rich. This Khodorkovsky/Lebiediev issue was just a show to cover the rest of them. They are both scumbags for sure but they did not landed in prison because they stole something.

Funny is the approach in the west towards Litvinenko, I mean especially media. They describe him as great hero and oppositionist (I share your opinion about him) but when he says something about Romano Prodi to be former KGB agent then they all completely ignore this and pretend that nothing interesting happened.
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:01 pm

I think Litvinenko is undoubtedly a brave man as he dared to resist Putin. How many people would've had enough courage to give an interview like that? In general he has given me a good impression.

Btw, NowhereMan, you said that Litvinenko stole money from Russian people. I've not heard about that, could you explain?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:37 pm

Quote :
Btw, NowhereMan, you said that Litvinenko stole money from Russian people. I've not heard about that, could you explain?

He worked for Berezovsky, who did steal.

He didn't resist Putin or anyone. He was a puppet. What's so brave about his interview? it is more stupid than brave... He knew (he thought) he was safe there so he could say whatever he likes. But he didn't give any evidence (which he never had) so it was just a bla-bla show.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:48 am

As far as i know (after polish wikipedia) this guy was investigating about Pilitovska' death. It's obvious that his knowledge was dangerous. Beside he betreyed his firm, telling mass media about plan of killing Bieriezovski. Maybe he did for money I don't know. He also wrote book - FSB blows up Russia. He irritated KGB and that's why he was killed. Also one question why dying man accused Putin for his situation?
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:02 pm

I read on a newspaper cover yesterday something like 'Russian assassins plans to kill some Russian guy living in London messed up by MI5 and MI6'. I'm in England atm... I didn't buy the newspaper tho.

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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:22 pm

Hypno wrote:
I read on a newspaper cover yesterday something like 'Russian assassins plans to kill some Russian guy living in London messed up by MI5 and MI6'. I'm in England atm...

This guy was going to kill Berezovsky, they say. He was deported back to Russia for that. What are they gonna do now? Request to extradite him?
Marasmus! It's not even funny anymore...

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I didn't buy the newspaper tho.

Good. Don't ruin your appetite.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: The Constitution of the Russian Federation   Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:59 pm

Quote :
Article 61

1. A citizen of the Russian Federation may not be deported from Russia or extradited to another State.

Hmm... I think that means that a citizen cannot be deported on political reasons only, but not in this case... Any lawyers here?
http://www.constitution.ru/en/10003000-01.htm
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:27 pm

In polish costitution there is also prohibition for deportations polish citizens to other states - art. 55
But there are two exceptions:
- if there is some agreement in this case between Poland and another State or there is some act of international organisation in which Poland is member.
Also crime must be done outside Poland and must be crime according to polish law.
- if some there is some tribunal which was created by agreement where one of siedes was my country last sentence above isn't necessery (about according to polish law)

As you can see political reasons are unrelevant.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:56 pm

This forum started from relocating monument in Estonia and reaction of Russian officials. We were arguing and swearing each other, then we all calmed down, almost made friends, started to talk about beer, traveling, gay parades, music, salaries, jobs, in other words – our own lives, our own problems… this forum became a pretty boring but very healthy place. And then, suddenly, we have “the missile defense system case”… again arguing and swearing about nothing and again we switch to our internal problems after a while… And now we have this stupid thing again, and guess who the bad guy is?

Rzeczpospolita, you were saying that all societies are easy to manipulate.

Well, I can picture G8 sitting around the table…
- Alright, we’re stuck in Iraq, global warming and shit like that… what to do? Ok, Vladimir, keep playing the part of the bully boy in Europe, so we could continue doing what we do. We won’t interfere in your internal affairs – keep building your wild capitalism with no respect to human rights… whatever… Now, let’s just make as much noise as possible out of nothing. We cannot let the society see our own gaffes. And this will help you to stay in power too, so… Let’s have some more beer?
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:57 pm

I don't know russian law, [polish also:)]but in constitiution there should be written some excepions becouse what is not writen is illegal to constitution.
Polish constitution's regulations are used DIRECTLY. This is how polish constitution works. If matter is large there should be (in constitution) sending away to some lower act.
I can' t see any ecxeptions in russian c. neither return to some lower acts so i think you have to change constitution if you want give out your citizen abroad. But i only suppouse.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:20 pm

Nowhereman it's easy to take pose of moral superriority and teach others what should they do or not if i did it I apologize. You are one here to defend good name of your country and you have difficult task. My topic wasn't so bad is he? Big hug from Poland for you cheers
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:33 pm

towito wrote:
Nowhereman it's easy to take pose of moral superriority and teach others what should they do or not if i did it I apologize. You are one here to defend good name of your country and you have difficult task. My topic wasn't so bad is he? Big hug from Poland for you cheers

Thanks but I didn't mean your posts and topics actually.. it's just another observation of mine. I meant the whole current situation in the world.

This particular issue is especially depressing for me, because I love England so much.. love its wonderful cultural herritage. Dickens is one of my favourite writers and there is no day when I don't playback a british rock band's records...
And I was going to visit London once again - it's the best city in the world. Hope I won't have any problems with visa (
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:07 pm

Well, in this case I think that plenty of such strange situations happen. Politicians usually have the goal to turn public attention from something important. I'm not aware about such important event were in Britain at this moment. Kremlin do such tricks constantly because they have constans problems in Russia to cover. By the way, I have heard that Tony Blair once announced some very bad news for his government, which would normally be a breaking one for all media outlets in the UK, incidentally few hours before two planes crashed on twin towers in the New York. No
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:32 pm

towito wrote:
In polish costitution there is also prohibition for deportations polish citizens to other states - art. 55
But there are two exceptions:
- if there is some agreement in this case between Poland and another State or there is some act of international organisation in which Poland is member.
Also crime must be done outside Poland and must be crime according to polish law.
- if some there is some tribunal which was created by agreement where one of siedes was my country last sentence above isn't necessery (about according to polish law)

We will see how EU regulations influence Swedes to deport Michnik brother or Brits to deport Wolinska-Brus. Both were Stalinist judges responsible for many crimes in communist Poland and this was impossible to bring them to Poland lately.
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:17 am

I don't know about Litvinenko. Imagine that everything he has said is true (we have no prooves but on the other hand there's no reason why it shouldn't be like that). If you were Putin, wouldn't you think it's necessary to get rid of man with such knowledges and who is ready to speak up?

As about the G8 conference, this doesn't seem to be too serious meeting. It looks more like a party where great leaders can have some fun. First that suspicion about Sarkozy being drunk, secondly Bush massaging Merkel. And thirdly the Merkel's announcement about the great results of the conference - she had had promises from all presidents that they are thinking about decreasing the amount of pollutive gases 50% in next 50 years.

But about the Russia's and UK's relationship - I believe they are going to normalize soon because at least according the Estonian news Russia doesn't want to argue with the UK too much. Imagine what would happen with Estonia if we would send out 4 Russian diplomats.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:48 am

Quote :
But about the Russia's and UK's relationship - I believe they are going to normalize soon because at least according the Estonian news Russia doesn't want to argue with the UK too much. Imagine what would happen with Estonia if we would send out 4 Russian diplomats

Both countries economies are too dependent on each other - it is a question of billions of dollars, so they won't argue too much and that's very good. Unfortunatly (or fortunatly?Smile), money today is the only thng that brings politcians to their senses.

Quote :
I don't know about Litvinenko. Imagine that everything he has said is true (we have no prooves but on the other hand there's no reason why it shouldn't be like that). If you were Putin, wouldn't you think it's necessary to get rid of man with such knowledges and who is ready to speak up?

I would have get rid of him quietly (a car accident or something) and you would have never heard of it.
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:23 am

Well we gotta write something on these forums. geek

And no, sorry, I'm not drinking, thanks for te offer though. scratch

Quote :
keep building your wild capitalism with no respect to human rights… whatever…

Perhaps, or maybe not, in EU a buyer can whine to the shop's authorities if the thingy wich he bought is kaput etc. clown
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:50 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I don't know about Litvinenko. Imagine that everything he has said is true (we have no prooves but on the other hand there's no reason why it shouldn't be like that). If you were Putin, wouldn't you think it's necessary to get rid of man with such knowledges and who is ready to speak up?
I would have get rid of him quietly (a car accident or something) and you would have never heard of it.
It's not so easy to plan such a car accident. The main problem is that the murderer probably doesn't want to die himself (or herself) and it's not easy to make sure such things in car accident. Maybe the Kremlin thought that a little deahtly illness wouldn't be too noticeable.

Anyway, I think some really great powers planned this murder. Polonium is a rare and expensive stuff and the sellers are very careful when selling it. In my opinion, it's most likely that it was sold to some country for nuclear power first.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: United Kingdom vs Russia   Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:47 pm

Helena wrote:

It's not so easy to plan such a car accident. The main problem is that the murderer probably doesn't want to die himself (or herself) and it's not easy to make sure such things in car accident. Maybe the Kremlin thought that a little deahtly illness wouldn't be too noticeable.

Not a car accident... it's just for example...

And they might be very bad guys but they are not idiots for sure - Special services have killed before (and not only russian services)


Quote :

Anyway, I think some really great powers planned this murder. Polonium is a rare and expensive stuff and the sellers are very careful when selling it. In my opinion, it's most likely that it was sold to some country for nuclear power first.

Yes, whoever planned this murder they had a lot of money and links with secret services, but if they used such an extraordinary method they new it would be discovered and there would be a great row. What's good in it for Putin? nothing, unless he plays the part of the bad guy as I said before... Otherwise I don't get it.
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