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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Gas pipe   Mon May 14, 2007 1:59 pm

So Russia planned to make gasline through Estonia?
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Risto

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 14, 2007 7:51 pm

It's really weird that they decided to start building the pipe without asking for Estonian permission. How are they so sure we would allow a gas pipe through here?

Or am I missing something?
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 14, 2007 8:02 pm

I think Russia will build this gasline through Finland because of the "cold policy" between Russia and Estonia. scratch
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Gert.B



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 14, 2007 10:42 pm

I think that in this world exist asymmetrical equilibrium. It means that a big country will alwasy obtain what they want with methods they most prefer to use, can be violation or compromise. If gas passes from Estonia, Estonia can tax the passagge. Where is the problem, it's bussiness. Actually Russia have its main pipe through Biellorussia and Ucraina to Italy and Germany.
Usa is building 3 pipes and one of this passes through Albania directed in the black sea.
China have heavily invested (50 miliard of dollars) in pipes from Georgia.
So Russia is forced to find in market out throught Estonia or Finland, althought Estonia will refuse, it have no way cause the Gas is going to Germany which lead with Frace the Eu. Sorry Sad
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 14, 2007 11:39 pm

Russia has already their contracts with Germany, Finnland, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan. Russia will build a new pipline to Germany through Finland and a new pipline in Turkmenistan.

I think the problems with baltic countries are of political nature and have nothing to do with business. The politicians of this countries don´t like each other, so Russia doesn´t want to risk.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Tue May 15, 2007 1:52 am

I think gas pipe was one of deals Russia had with Savisaar which Ansip now screwed up lol!
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Tue May 15, 2007 7:21 pm

Admin wrote:
I think gas pipe was one of deals Russia had with Savisaar which Ansip now screwed up lol!

Ansip will loose a lot of money and Vanhanen will be happy about it. pirat
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kost
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PostSubject: Nord Stream   Wed May 16, 2007 2:09 am

There's neutral waters between Estonian and Finnish borders and the objective was to place the pipeline in them. But these neutral were created when Estonia and Finland have signed an agreement to decrease their economical waters, so Estonia and Finland have a right to undo that and then the pipeline will lose it's meaning. On the other hand it's unlikely that Finland will agree to do that.

Creating a pipeline to Kaliningrad and Middle Europe without transit state clearly has many advantages for business and for politicians too.
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LPF



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Wed May 16, 2007 10:03 pm

Gazprom (or what the comapny is) is composing its own private army?
or am i mistaking? Question
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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Wed May 16, 2007 10:04 pm

havent heared
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Krissukristel

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 11:44 am

I heard from the radio finnish wanted that gaspipe to go through estonian waters.
Estonians of course would chop off one of our fingers first.
and IF that pipeline goes through estonian watres, russians want to take over one of our harbours (and one of latvians) to bring in their military and submarines to watch over the pipeline. affraid
Fun!
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Risto

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 1:02 pm

Krissukristel wrote:
I heard from the radio finnish wanted that gaspipe to go through estonian waters.
Estonians of course would chop off one of our fingers first.
and IF that pipeline goes through estonian watres, russians want to take over one of our harbours (and one of latvians) to bring in their military and submarines to watch over the pipeline. affraid
Fun!

I heard that one too, I hope they are kidding.(About the submarines)
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Krissukristel

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 1:11 pm

Risto wrote:
Krissukristel wrote:
I heard from the radio finnish wanted that gaspipe to go through estonian waters.
Estonians of course would chop off one of our fingers first.
and IF that pipeline goes through estonian watres, russians want to take over one of our harbours (and one of latvians) to bring in their military and submarines to watch over the pipeline. affraid
Fun!

I heard that one too, I hope they are kidding.(About the submarines)
I dont think they do
russians are dieng to get military bases back to former soviet countrys.
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Risto

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 4:03 pm

Then we must do everything to stop that from happening. Or send a request to NATO asking them to send their submarines to watch the submarines guarding the gas pipe. Very Happy
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 6:06 pm

http://www.postimees.ee/170407/esileht/majandus/255558.php

Here's the translation. I gave my best.
---
Gazprom which breaks its way to Estonian waters is probably going to have Russian government’s prmission to create a well-equipped private army that consists of thousands of combatives.

Russia is worried about the safety of energy channels that are important to country, therefore there is a new project started in Duuma. It gives both to Gazprom and to Russian national oil monopoly Transneft right to create armed subdivisions in order to protect their buildings.

The project is still in the beginning but according newspaper Nezavissimaya Gazeta this conception has already been acclaimed by Kremlin.

The project gives the soldiers of subdivisions right „to use service weapon and special devices to protect the storage, manufacturing, saving and transporting of nationally important goods and also to protect the possession that is important to accomplish international contracts”.

According to Nesavissimaja Gazeta, laws don’t eliminate the chance that the subdivisions are going to be equipped with automatical battle weapons. The soldiers would have right to research the vehicles and use a weapon to guard not just the objects but the territory as well.

The press agency of Gazprom has notified that the size of the private army would remain a secret. Gazprom is not a national company and therefore doesn’t have to explain anything to anyone, the gaz giant said.

Igor Gräzin, the member of Riigikogu (Estonian Pairliament) says that creating private armies to these companies which stand close to Kremlin is according the general politics of Russia. Gräzin reminded the saying of Russian president Vladimir Putin: the building of Russian-German gas pipe needs military protection.

„As we know, Russia wishes to reconstruct the fleet of Baltic sea, the first vice prime minister Sergei Ivanov has accentuated the importance of the fleet when building and protecting the pipe,” Gräzin reminded. „In relation to that Russian reconnaissannce power is ineluctably going to increase, they want to know, who operate around their gas pipe. Surely the spionage residentury will grow bigger, if it already hasn’t grown.”

It’s still not clear if the daughter company of Gazprom, the Nord Stream would also be under the protection of the private army. Nord Stream is building a Russian-German gas pipe which the company in geologigal reasons wishes to move south, to Estonian economic area.

The Ministry of Defence of Estonia assumes that their statement is concrete and undubious. „No soldier of a private army will come to Estonia,” said the head of public affairs Madis Mikko. „The intentions of Gazprom make us anxious and their deeds are carefully watched.”

Marko Mihkelson, the member of Estonian Pairliament Riigikogu accentuated that defence departments of the lands of Baltic sea need to observe closely, how exactly the guarding of gas pipe will be organized. „The transport ways of energy already have a great strategical meaning which grows even bigger as the number of resoures will decrease.

Mihkelson assumes that Estonian government needs to know all about the environmental, pilitical and military dangers that accompany when the gas pipe is going to be built. „There are basicly no borders between Kremlin and Gazprom, this national company is undubiously a conducter of Russian foreign policy,” Mihkelson said. „The Estonian government must talk seriously about the gas pipe in nearest weeks or months because in the future there might come forward really serious problem which we could avoid now.”

The project of accoutering the energy monopolies has been critisized in Russia, too. Emil Pain, the director of Ethnopolitical Searches Centre of Moscow says that it might end up with creation of several other private armies in Russia.

„Even armed corporations alone cause enough anxiousness, but in case of Russia it might be even more dangerous for the society,” Pain said to the press.


Last edited by on Fri May 18, 2007 12:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 6:43 pm

I don't think they'll EVER get a military base to any NATO country (Finland is not in nato, btw, but I don't think they'd allow it either). Atleast until WW III comes.
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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 6:46 pm

this cant be let happen.
They are not company interests protecters, its an army under krems control.
Also i say "no" to that gaspipe, becouse Russia has been such an asshole to Estonia lately.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 8:38 pm

Quote :

I dont think they do
russians are dieng to get military bases back to former soviet countrys.


Quote :


Thu May 17, 2007 9:43 pm

I don't think they'll EVER get a military base to any NATO country (Finland is not in nato, btw, but I don't think they'd allow it either). Atleast until WW III comes.

Thu May 17, 2007 7:03 pm

Then we must do everything to stop that from happening. Or send a request to NATO asking them to send their submarines to watch the submarines guarding the gas pipe.

Are you nutts? You are so paranoid. NATO, WW3... Oh God... Relax people! Noone's trying to take your independence. As for the pipeline, no one will ask me, no one will ask you - it's a big business and big politics. You may send requests to NATO, but just bear in mind that in case of a serious conflict (which is impossible) between EU and Rus (???), your countries will be just a loose change as it had happened before... But it's so absurd...
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Vabapaase



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 9:46 pm

I think being scared is nothing to be shame for Estonians, cause if Russians are makeing such weird things like puting its soldiers near estonia...
...then it makes people get a little-bit nervous...
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Thu May 17, 2007 10:20 pm

Yup. We have had like ~50 years of independence and ~600 years of different occupations from like 5-6 different countries. So I say we have all the rights to be afraid.

And no one is trying to take our independence, but still Russia acts like they rule over us.
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3 Alarms

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Tue May 22, 2007 5:55 pm

Being paranoid against Russia is normal thing. You never know what will happens next, when they decide that they change things as they want. If some treaty isnt good enough they just change it.

And why they need to built it here Russia is big they can built it many other places better than this one. But building it thru estonian waters gives option to abuse more. I dont trust anything what Russia say because tomorrow it changes. Look what happened Narva bridge. One day it was closed over 3 ton weight next moment over 13 t and suddenly it is open again. It is litle thing but how can i trust country who do that.
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kost



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 28, 2007 12:26 am

3 Alarms wrote:
Being paranoid against Russia is normal thing. You never know what will happens next, when they decide that they change things as they want. If some treaty isnt good enough they just change it.

And why they need to built it here Russia is big they can built it many other places better than this one. But building it thru estonian waters gives option to abuse more. I dont trust anything what Russia say because tomorrow it changes. Look what happened Narva bridge. One day it was closed over 3 ton weight next moment over 13 t and suddenly it is open again. It is litle thing but how can i trust country who do that.

1. Being mad is not normal.(para = outside; nous = mind)

2. What exactly Russia changed as they want? I thought that unlike Estonia or USA Russia doesn't change or leave working agreements.

3. How is some other place better then this one?

4. It is not built through Estonian waters. The hole idea of this pipeline is that it will not be built through anyone's waters. It will be built through Russia, then through neutral waters and then through Germany and other buyers, so that no one could interfere with the pipeline.
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Oberst Schultz



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon May 28, 2007 1:27 pm

kost wrote:
3 Alarms wrote:
Being paranoid against Russia is normal thing. You never know what will happens next, when they decide that they change things as they want. If some treaty isnt good enough they just change it.

And why they need to built it here Russia is big they can built it many other places better than this one. But building it thru estonian waters gives option to abuse more. I dont trust anything what Russia say because tomorrow it changes. Look what happened Narva bridge. One day it was closed over 3 ton weight next moment over 13 t and suddenly it is open again. It is litle thing but how can i trust country who do that.

1. Being mad is not normal.(para = outside; nous = mind)

2. What exactly Russia changed as they want? I thought that unlike Estonia or USA Russia doesn't change or leave working agreements.

3. How is some other place better then this one?

4. It is not built through Estonian waters. The hole idea of this pipeline is that it will not be built through anyone's waters. It will be built through Russia, then through neutral waters and then through Germany and other buyers, so that no one could interfere with the pipeline.

bloody hell. if something happens to the pipeline, then these damn borders will not stop the catastrophy will they?
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kost



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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon Jun 04, 2007 2:28 pm

Quote :
bloody hell. if something happens to the pipeline, then these damn borders will not stop the catastrophy will they?
What catastrophe are you talking about? This isn't the first underwater gas pipeline, e.g. North and Norwegian seas are full of pipelines. Still there is no catastrophe there, or?
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vJ

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PostSubject: Re: Gas pipe   Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:04 pm

kost wrote:
Quote :
bloody hell. if something happens to the pipeline, then these damn borders will not stop the catastrophy will they?
What catastrophe are you talking about? This isn't the first underwater gas pipeline, e.g. North and Norwegian seas are full of pipelines. Still there is no catastrophe there, or?

these pipes are controlled and built by norway, not russia.. so ofcourse there has been no catastrophes of any kind yet.

you say russia "only" wants to build the pipe through neutral waters.. and after the pipe is built these waters almost belong to russia, as it's even getting an army for "protecting" the pipe with special weapons etc..
norway has an army protecting their pipes? no?
norway's pipe waters have shitloads of toxics and mines in the bottom.. no?

russia only wants to take over the baltic sea again, building a pipe is one way to do it.
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