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 occupation or liberation

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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 10:21 pm

Estonia was given to russia by germany with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact at 1939.
It was formulated and taken over at 1940.
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 10:27 pm

DerDieDas wrote:
There is no need to "love" someone. Soviet army liberated Estonia from nazis and this is a fact. study
From wikipedia:

Liberation is based on the word liberty, related to the word liberal, and it is often understood as "to be freed (or change) from not having freedom to having freedom".

The Soviet Union changed us from not having freedom to still not having freedom, thus, it wasn't a liberation.

DerDieDas wrote:
Quote :
No, they didn't. Nazis were left, when Soviet army came to Tallinn.

Laughing Why had Nazis to leave baltic countries?
Becouse they had suffered heavy losses in Russia and were backing off from the advancing Soviet forces. It's late atm but I could find the part from wiki tomorrow, or search for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_2
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 10:33 pm

Hypno ,

is it so heavy to unterstand? cyclops Soviet Union maked your country free from Nazis. It is an fact. Look to wikipedia and read the definition of this word.

And by the way, search also for "rhetorically question" Wink
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 10:35 pm

Kaspar wrote:
Estonia was given to russia by germany with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact at 1939.
It was formulated and taken over at 1940.

Maybe it was so, but it doesn´t change the things during the WW2.
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 11:08 pm

DerDieDas wrote:
Hypno ,

is it so heavy to unterstand? cyclops Soviet Union maked your country free from Nazis. It is an fact. Look to wikipedia and read the definition of this word.
Free from nazis, but then occupied us, thus the term 'liberation' doesn't apply. It was rather a 'switching of occupants'.

And a rhetorical question:
A question that the audience answers mentally rather than out loud.

Didn't notice your question, please ask again so I could mentally answer it.
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DerDieDas



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Thu May 17, 2007 11:26 pm

Hypno, you are an original. I have never read a guy who had answered 2 rhetorical questions. Shocked Surprised

Maybe it also explain your non-understanding of an simple fact, that Soviet Soldiers liberated Estonia from Nazi Soldiers

If you want to understand the meaning of this words, then you should make some questions to a gipsy or a jude who survived the holocaust. Neutral
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 1:03 am

Of course, they threw Nazies out so they could take over.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 6:21 am

Hypno wrote:
Krissukristel wrote:
It would have been liberation if they would have left after liberating.
Thus, it was an occupation.

I wonder do most russians even know that they were allies with the nazis at the start of WWII?

Read more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia#Under_the_USSR

You'll be surprised my friend, but we studied it at school. It was in our history books!
But all the books I've ever read are all lie as I can see now Sad I should have read wikipedia and "WW2 for dummies"...
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 12:13 pm

DerDieDas wrote:
Maybe it also explain your non-understanding of an simple fact, that Soviet Soldiers liberated Estonia from Nazi Soldiers
They drove the nazis out and replaced them. So we wern't free, ERGO they didn't liberate us from anything. They replaced one occupation with another, explain how's that liberating.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 12:59 pm

Hypno wrote:
DerDieDas wrote:
Maybe it also explain your non-understanding of an simple fact, that Soviet Soldiers liberated Estonia from Nazi Soldiers
They replaced one occupation with another, explain how's that liberating.

Soviet Union collapsed and now you are a free man in a free country. If Nazis had won you wouldn't have been born at all.
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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 1:23 pm

NowhereMan we cant be sure what would happen, maybe all world would had attacked germany, without any occupation.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 1:43 pm

Voodoo wrote:
NowhereMan we cant be sure what would happen, maybe all world would had attacked germany, without any occupation.

Another reason to stop arguing about it. We can’t change the history (even if we rewrite it), so it’s better to accept it as it is. Occupation or liberation? What’s the difference now? Are you free now? Enjoy your freedom.
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Krissukristel

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:07 pm

Quote :
Enjoy your freedom.
we try.
If only some other nation wouldnt think they have right to tell us what we have to do in our own country
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:08 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Are you free now? Enjoy your freedom.
We are free, but Russia acts like it still controls us.
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Earthland



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:35 pm

Quote :
is it so heavy to unterstand? Soviet Union maked your country free from Nazis. It is an fact. Look to wikipedia and read the definition of this word.

lok, let's see what happened.. all togehter....

from wikipedia:

Quote :
Creation of Estonian SSR
On June 16-17, 1940, the Soviet troops occupied the whole territory of Estonia and demanded a change to a new pro-Soviet puppet government. Similarly to the developments in neighboring Latvia and Lithuania, the occupation and change of government was then in the three countries followed by "parliamentary elections" where all but pro-Communist candidates were outlawed. The "parliament" so elected proclaimed Estonia a Socialist Republic on July 21, 1940 and unanimously requested Estonia to be "accepted" into the Soviet Union. Estonia was formally annexed into the Soviet Union on August 6 and renamed the Estonian Soviet Socialist Republic.[1] The 1940 occupation and annexation of Estonia into the Soviet Union was considered illegal and never officially recognized by Great Britain, the United States and other Western democracies.

The Soviet authorities, having gained control over Estonia, immediately imposed a regime of terror. During the first year of Soviet occupation (1940-1941) over 8,000 people, including most of the country's leading politicians and military officers, were arrested. About 2,200 of the arrested were executed in Estonia, while most others were moved to prison camps in Russia, from where very few were later able to return alive. On June 14, 1941, when mass deportations took place simultaneously in all three Baltic countries, about 10,000 Estonian civilians were deported to Siberia and other remote areas of the Soviet Union, where nearly half of them later perished. Of the 32,100 Estonian men who were forcibly relocated to Russia under the pretext of mobilisation into the Soviet army after the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, nearly 40 percent died within the next year in the so-called "labour battalions" through hunger, cold and overworking. During the first Soviet occupation of 1940-41 about 500 Jews were deported to Siberia


[edit] German Occupation
After Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, and the Wehrmacht reached Estonia in July 1941, most Estonians greeted the Germans with relatively open arms and hoped to restore independence. But it soon became clear that sovereignty was out of the question. Estonia became a part of the German-occupied "Ostland". A Sicherheitspolizei was established for internal security under the leadership of Ain-Ervin Mere.

Estonia had a relatively small Jewish population of 4,500 people before the war. Round-ups and killings of Jews began immediately following the arrival of the first German troops in 1941, who were closely followed by the extermination squad Einsatzkommando (Sonderkommando) 1A, part of Einsatzgruppe A. Arrests and executions continued as the Germans, with the assistance of local collaborators, advanced through Estonia. About 50 percent of Estonia's Jewish community, aware of the fate that otherwise awaited them, with help from many Estonians managed to escape to the Soviet Union; virtually all the remainder (between 950 and 1,000 men, women and children) were killed before the end of 1941. Fewer than a dozen Estonian Jews are known to have survived the war in Estonia, mostly helped by Estonians to hide from Germans. The Nazi regime also established 22 concentration and labor camps in Estonia for foreign Jews, the largest, Vaivara, had 20,000 Jewish prisoners pass through its gates, and several thousand foreign Jews were killed at the Kalevi Liiva camp.

The initial enthusiasm that accompanied the liberation from Soviet occupation quickly waned as a result and the Germans had limited success in recruiting volunteers. The draft was introduced in 1942, resulting in some 3400 men fleeing to Finland to fight in the Finnish Army rather than join the Germans. With the Allied victory over Germany becoming certain in 1944, the only option to save Estonia's independence was to stave off a new Soviet invasion of Estonia until Germany's capitulation. Therefore many Estonians heeded the general mobilisation call in 1944 to fight the Soviets, which also saw the return of some 3000 men from Finland. The initial formation of the volunteer SS Estonian legion created in 1942 was eventually expanded to become a full-sized conscript division of the Waffen SS in 1944, the 20th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Estonian). The Estonian units saw action defending the Narva line throughout 1944.

As the Germans retreated in September 1944, Jüri Uluots, the last Prime Minister of the Estonian Republic prior to Soviet occupation, assumed the responsibilities of president (as dictated in the Constitution) and appointed a new government while seeking recognition from the Allies. The new government fled to Stockholm, Sweden and operated in exile until 1992, when Heinrich Mark, the prime minister of the Estonian government in exile acting as president, presented his credentials to incoming president Lennart Meri.

After WW II

In World War II Estonia suffered huge losses. Ports were destroyed, and 45% of industry and 40% of the railways were damaged. Estonia's population decreased by one-fifth, about 200,000 people. Some 10% of the population (over 80,000 people) fled to the West between 1940 and 1944. More than 30,000 soldiers were killed in action. In 1944 Russian air raids destroyed Narva and one-third of the residential area in Tallinn. By the late autumn of 1944, Soviet forces expelled the last German troops from Estonia, ushering in a second phase of Soviet rule, followed again by a wave of arrests and executions of people considered disloyal to the Soviets.


So you call it "liberating"? In Estonia Soviets were much worse than nazis (avouching that fact doesn't mean we liked nazis).

Is it really so difficult to understand that it was just one criminal regime changing with other? Liberation and "liberation" are not the same. You should also know the differences between discrimination and "discrimination", fascism and "fascism" .
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Earthland



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:41 pm

Quote :
You'll be surprised my friend, but we studied it at school. It was in our history books!
But all the books I've ever read are all lie as I can see now I should have read wikipedia and "WW2 for dummies"...

oh yeah.. it made me almost laugh (: . Did you read Russian history books? Then author is very probably Putin himself ^^. Russian history books should be called "Putin's lies 1940-2007" or something else like that. They are from Soviet times, but you know, in Soviet times everybody who sayed something true about WWII, were executed.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:51 pm

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oh yeah.. it made me almost laugh (: . Did you read Russian history books? Then author is very probably Putin himself ^^. Russian history books should be called "Putin's lies 1940-2007" or something else like that. They are from Soviet times, but you know, in Soviet times everybody who sayed something true about WWII, were executed.

You wanna say that Putin wrote the books I read at school? And Putin was writing them in Soviet times? Putin kills reporters, Putin restores SU, Putin writes history books, he even travels in time and teaches me at school 15 years ago... you make me wanna cry... I'm so unhappy... I can't control my fingers!! They're typing this against my will - Putin manipulates them!!
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:57 pm

Quote :

We are free, but Russia acts like it still controls us.
Quote:
Enjoy your freedom.
we try.
If only some other nation wouldnt think they have right to tell us what we have to do in our own country

US and EU always tell us what to do. It is very annoying but so what? That's the way life is.
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Earthland



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Quote :
You wanna say that Putin wrote the books I read at school? And Putin was writing them in Soviet times? Putin kills reporters, Putin restores SU, Putin writes history books, he even travels in time and teaches me at school 15 years ago... you make me wanna cry... I'm so unhappy... I can't control my fingers!! They're typing this against my will - Putin manipulates them!!

Can you define word "irony"? Maybe some day you even understand it...
Putin supports the Soviet-times viewes. Books that write truth about Soviet, are not allowed into schools. So it can be sayed he is the "author", though of course he isn't.

Of course putin kill journalists. At least one journalist. And many people who are against him, are arrested. Like three people this (or yesterday) morning. Khm-khm Rolling Eyes
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 3:07 pm

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And many people who are against him, are arrested. Like three people this (or yesterday) morning

Do you mean Kasparov and co?
Oops...I gotta go, guys. Just got a text from Putin. He told me to go home and then go out to have some beer with friends...

Respect to the creator of this forum!! Such a lovely company here Very Happy See ya later!
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Earthland



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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 3:35 pm

Oh no, now that was really funny Rolling Eyes . Some ontopic would be useful for you.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 3:43 pm

What ontopic? You want me to discuss "historical facts" taken from wikipedia? okay, it was occupation! so what? do you feel any better?
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Voodoo

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 4:19 pm

NowhereMan you see, those riots and many other crap are mixed with history. During riots we noticed that there are big differences in nations views, we are trying to explain our side of it so local russians could understand us and government. Purpose is to have more balanced society in Estonia.
People, we are haveing very emotional issues here but lets try to do it camly.

Wink


Last edited by on Fri May 18, 2007 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 4:20 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :

We are free, but Russia acts like it still controls us.
Quote:
Enjoy your freedom.
we try.
If only some other nation wouldnt think they have right to tell us what we have to do in our own country

US and EU always tell us what to do. It is very annoying but so what? That's the way life is.
We joined EU knowing that they'd have some economical power over us. People voted to get to EU on free will and EU has brought us MUCH more good things than bad. And there are Estonians in the EU parliament also...

And when did USA tell us what to do?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: occupation or liberation   Fri May 18, 2007 4:32 pm

Quote :
We joined EU knowing that they'd have some economical power over us. People voted to get to EU on free will and EU has brought us MUCH more good things than bad. And there are Estonians in the EU parliament also... And when did USA tell us what to do?
I was talking about Russia. They keep teaching Russia how to live all the time. I know that getting to the EU was a good thing for Estonia. As for the US telling everybody what to do, and spreading "democracy" all over the world... there should be another topic.
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