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 About human rights in Estonia

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Mon May 21, 2007 8:32 pm

NowhereMan, how russian media replyed to this EU and Putin meeteing?
And march of journalists...?

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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Mon May 21, 2007 8:44 pm

Admin wrote:
NowhereMan, how russian media replyed to this EU and Putin meeteing?
And march of journalists...?

In the papers I read there's no comments. Only pure facts. EU said this - RF said that. EU did this- RF did that. Maybe there's more materials but I haven't followed the news very well...
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Mon May 21, 2007 8:50 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
nearly a billion speaks Russian
You’re a little bit exaggerating, but I understand what you mean. .
Total speakers:
primary language: about 147 million
secondary language: 113 million
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Mon May 21, 2007 11:33 pm

lendoblikas wrote:

In Estonia it is the ius sanguis system, not ius solis, as in usa. In most countries they have the ius sanguis system, which means that citizenship is granted if you are born as a child of two citizens or through naturalization- you learn the language and the history ant pass a test. It is to protect the nations culture, language and history. See, if we would let Russians get the citizenship without knowing Estonian, we would risk being abolished from the face of the earth, because only one million people speak Estonian, but nearly a billion speaks Russian. I advise you to check out the laws of Iceland for example, they have one of the harshest measures of protecting their nationality (there is only 300 000 of them). We are small, we need to protect ourselves. Russians as part of big nation believe that anyone who is small has no right to exist at all.

Also I would like to remind you why and how you were born in Estonia. This land here has belonged to Estonians for over 10 000 years. 60 years ago Russia annexed Estonia (I say Russia, because Russia declares that it is the official successor of the Soviet Union). Then in the 1960.-s and 1970.-s they started deporting Russian workers here. These people came here with the thought of abolishing our culture and language, there is even an official term for it: to russify. Before the war, by the way, Estonia was a very blooming and quite wealthy little democratic European country. If there had not been the occupation (Russians took all the successful Estonian farmers and businessmen to GULAG, too, by the way) we would be where Finland is now. And also, think about the fact than whenever Estonia has become independent of Russia, we have started blooming economically. Now Estonians have built a well-developing democratic coutry with European values. Russians who live here enjoy the fruits, but have not done anything themselves (like learn the language, get a job, build a better economy for us all), instead they are unoccupyed and receive support money from our government. Well, at least they could be qiuet then (I dont even ask them to be thankful), because in the beloved Rossija they would starve if they didn't work, beacause there the people are so poor that there is not even any point in stealing and robbing.

Some people in this forum say that Soviet Union was democratic because Estonians were allowed to speak Estonian in their homes, beacuse in the leading bodies of factories and etc it was allowed that one person was Estonian and because Estonians were allowed to have school education in Estonian. These are their reasons to prove that Estonia was not suppressed. Now, think, what if Russia annexed Sweden for example. And the laws would be that in every entrprise there has to be an ethnic Russian in the governing body, that all the Swedish people have to learn Russian, that all the official paperwork can only be in Russian. You would say that it is not oppressive?

I think that the Russians had a right to speak about discrimination here, if it was their historic area. But it is not. Before the WW2 there were almost no Russians here. They came here in the 60.-s and 70.-s to russify Estonia.

Nice comment. I feel respected being among so many smart Estonians at least at this forum. Really!
Go Go Eestlased! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Mon May 21, 2007 11:44 pm

flower

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Tue May 22, 2007 10:44 am

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Tue May 22, 2007 10:47 am

I think we should just wait for 20-30 years. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Tue May 22, 2007 11:15 am

terker wrote:
The problem with many Russian speaking ex soviet citizens in Baltic countries is that their mix up their lost privileges with human rights.

I agree to that
Thats why noone has nothing to say if we ask what human rights or how are you being discriminated.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Tue May 22, 2007 2:17 pm

well first i dont understand what kind human rights are violated in estonia. Mad

1. security rights that prohibit crimes such as murder/"enforced" involuntary suicide, massacre, torture and rape

2. liberty rights that protect freedoms in areas such as belief and religion, association, assembling and movement

3. political rights that protect the liberty to participate in politics by expressing themselves, protesting, participating in a republic
due process rights that protect against abuses of the legal system such as imprisonment without trial, secret trials and excessive punishments

4. equality rights that guarantee equal citizenship, equality before the law and nondiscrimination

5. welfare rights (also known as economic rights) that require the provision of, e.g., education, paid holidays, and protections against severe poverty and starvation

6. group rights that provide protection for groups against ethnic genocide and for the ownership by countries of their national territories and resources

those are human rights and i dont see them violated or i am just blind
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:18 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Well, this is your land and you should decide, but it’s not normal that there are so many people in your country are not integrated in life of the Estonian society.

well it's not Estonia's fault they dont want to learn our language, you can't really blame us in that.
if the government forced every russian to go to estonian courses you would still blame us for discrimination.....

learning a language isnt that hard, it depends on motivation, the environment and parents for example... if your parents totally refuse to learn any estonian you cant learn estonian at home, which is very important for a kid to learn a language... and the environment, if noone speaks estonian in your neighbourhood you dont need estonian right? then when you need a job you blame us for discrimination...
I learned finnish at the age of 5 and 6, by the 7 (3th year in finland) I basically knew the language... becouse all my friends were finnish and talked finnish etc.. but this doesnt happen in russian societys in estonia, they only speak estonian when they really have to, barely never when half of the environment around you speaks russian..

english took me 4 years to learn, noone speaks it here, but the motivation kept me learning... knowing english could open me a whole new world, new people to talk with etc... motivation, the thing russians lack when it comes to learning estonian.. cant blame us for that.
ofc I had a problem with motivation too, you know we have to study swedish here in finland becouse theres like 2% swedish people in finland, and we have a long history together with sweden Razz
I never liked the language coz I felt it useless and so.. I never learned it properly Sad
but russians should understand that 2/3 of estonians speak estonian, and that estonian is a beautiful little language that only like million people know, something has to be done to keep it alive... call it "language police" or whatever, but we cant just let our language to die and disappear.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:23 pm

LPF wrote:
language
jobs
cultural and historical discrimination
innocent russians being beaten in the streets of Tallinn
...

you think theres something wrong with human rights in estonia lol?

if youre not happy, go to russia.. things must be a lot better there aye?

ever heard of journalist being killed in estonia?
or demonstrations being ended with force in estonia?
you see estonians running in russia's embassies with flags and yelling ESTONIA and FASCISTS?!
seen estonian police robbing tourists or local people?
ever read a cencored newspaper in estonia?

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur460562006 for example..

you should be thankful and happy for living in estonia, not bragging how much your life is fucked by your own opinions.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:45 am

Quote :
NowhereMan wrote:
Well, this is your land and you should decide, but it’s not normal that there are so many people in your country are not integrated in life of the Estonian society.

well it's not Estonia's fault they dont want to learn our language, you can't really blame us in that....
.... but we cant just let our language to die and disappear....

Well, I didn't blame you... I have the same attitude towards studying languages and I think "rustonians" should learn estonian if they live there...

Actually, I’ve never been to Estonia and I don’t know very much about its culture. I hope I’ll have a chance to get there… I think it’s good that you are trying to protect your culture and your language but looks like you act a little bit aggressive… I mean there’s no smoke without fire, and people don’t complain without a reason usually.. Anyway, as I said I’ve never been there so I can’t say for sure.

Small finno-ugric languages disappear. It’s very said Crying or Very sad and people must do something to protect them. But this should be in another topic.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:48 pm

language
jobs
cultural and historical discrimination
innocent russians being beaten in the streets of Tallinn
...
you think theres something wrong with human rights in estonia lol? Like a Star @ heaven No

if youre not happy, go to russia.. things must be a lot better there aye?
Like a Star @ heaven but i am happy!!!

ever heard of journalist being killed in estonia? Like a Star @ heaven NO
or demonstrations being ended with force in estonia? Like a Star @ heaven no Wink
you see estonians running in russia's embassies with flags and yelling ESTONIA and FASCISTS?! Like a Star @ heaven NO
seen estonian police robbing tourists or local people? Like a Star @ heaven NO
ever read a cencored newspaper in estonia? Like a Star @ heaven NO

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engeur460562006 for example..

you should be thankful and happy for living in estonia, not bragging how much your life is fucked by your own opinions.

what ???????????????????Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
you have huge problems Very Happy where did i say that estonia is a fucked up place to be? Very Happy
Evil or Very Mad control your emotions
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vJ

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:47 pm

LPF wrote:

what ???????????????????Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
you have huge problems Very Happy where did i say that estonia is a fucked up place to be? Very Happy
Evil or Very Mad control your emotions

I dont have problems.. your post sounds like youre blaming estonia for breaking human rights.

life in estonia can be easy or hard for a russian, but that depends 95% of the russian's personal choices and opinions.. or anyone elses. if an american comes to estonia and refuses to learn the language, life will be hard(er) for him here too.

I posted russian problems, how human rights are broken in Russia.. I just replaced the word "russia" with the word "estonia"... you see, Estonia isnt bad place at all to live. in my opinion it's a very beautiful and good place to live, too bad now I live in Finland.. I miss estonia much Sad
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:00 pm

Well.. vJ has a logic in his words. But start point of logic is a bit wrong.
Russians see beginning of discrimination in 1991-92 years, when new independent Republic of Estonia gave citizenship only for about 60% of country population.
Estonians used to say "What's the problem? Obey the law, learn the language and become Estonia citizen".
Problem is these laws were invented by estonian part of population, not by all population. Easy to say "That's the law" but hard to understand "That's the estonian law, not our common law".
Very good example with Suomi. 2% of swedish population and it is second official language. 1/3 of Estonia population is russian-speaking, but russian is not official. And even more, people who do not speak estonian are very limited in getting job not by employer, but by the law.

The best choice would be giving Estonian citizenship to everyone liveng in Estonia in 1991 and their children and cancelling "language police", giving the right to choose workers according to economical reasons, not political.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:21 pm

Tasuja wrote:
Well.. vJ
Very good example with Suomi. 2% of swedish population and it is second official language. 1/3 of Estonia population is russian-speaking, but russian is not official.

this is a whole different thing, finland belonged to sweden for hundreds of years. and when russia took us finland made a some kind of a deal with sweden that it still would take care of the swedish "elite" living here or something... language etc..

but last years there has been public talk about removing the "have to" swedish totally, as it's not a compulsory subject in schools anymore for example.

Finland always had two languages, swedish and finnish, but when sweden lost us, finnish became the "main" language, and swedish secondary. the situation is not the same in estonia.


russians in estonia have only lived there like what, 40 years? sweden families that live here have mostly lived here for 200 or 300 years. they lived here when finland belonged to sweden and russia.

russians in estonia are different thing, they were "transpotted" in estonia to replace estonians and "melt" estonia to russia. thats why so many estonians got transported to syberia, like my grandpa for example. and t hat didnt happen in estonia only. CCCP's aim was to make the union "the" one big nation, at the cost of innocent civilians lives in baltics and everywhere.

now estonia has a reason to protect its culture and language, as any other small country or nation. estonia's laws are equal to any european country's laws. russians are just angry becouse they are not "kings" of estonia anymore, now they have to learn a language that they should have learned 40 years ago.. but times were different then and now.
russians should just shut up and be happy where they are or move back to russia if theyre not happy.
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Tasuja



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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:10 pm

Wow.. 40 years!! Laughing Is that history now study in estonian schools? Estonia was independent country for thousands of years, and only 40 years ago russians came here? Laughing Super! Please send my greetings to uncle Mart.

For your info, russians live in Estonia much and much longer. Estonia was a part of Russian Imperia in 18th and 19th centuries. Yes, many people came here from other republics of USSR in 1950 - 90. But they came here to live and work as it was legal, you know. All KGB agents were sent out in the beginning of independence and I do not see any reason why not to give citizenship for all the rest population.
Finland was under Sweden rule for many years, as you said. But finnish politics had enough brains to keep good relationships with them after getting freedom by leading certain rules. Estonia politics did not. And that is the real difference.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:03 pm

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:14 pm

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:18 pm

Ok here we go again.

Swedish language in Finland is because they had a argument about an island (if I remember correctly it was Ahvenanmaa). Finns and Sweden made a deal since on that island most of the population spoke Swedish, but Island belonged to Finns then there was deal that Finland takes Swedish as second language and Sweden will not have any interest of the Island.

Yes in Estonia there are some about 1/3 Russians as people like to say (but actually it is more 1/4 or 1/5ish, 300 000 Russians out of ~1.3 million population).
And yes Estonia has belong to Russia for few hundred years as it belonged to crusaders (Germans, Danes etc.) and then few decades to Sweden before.
But during these few hundred years Russians didn't bring their people in, this land was more like farm land where they got their food.
Estonia has every right to have a language policy, if there wouldn't be one this unique language would die out. If Russians in Estonia had oportunity to not learn the language they would not learn it at all, since there is the police they need to learn it but most of them still don't.
This issue is much bigger than some economical factor how to increase profit, it is a lot more important.

Most of the Russians were brought to Estonia illegally according to some Swiss convent of occupation, and SU owning Baltic as members have been found to be criminal and illegal already in 1946.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Fri Jun 08, 2007 10:26 pm

International Hate wrote:
After all i don't think the official character is that big issue. For example USA doesn't have official languages at all. As far as i know most estonians speaks russian, right? Most finns, including me speaks swedish, but i definately wouldn't want to do business in Finland in swedish. Atleast i wouldn't hire a person for customer service, who cannot speak finnish, it's not discrimination but business. Maybe in Narva area a customer servant can manage in Russian only, but in Tallinn it's your own problem if you don't get a job without speaking estonian.
Yes, thats what I'm talking about. Let the people decide what language they want to talk. If perssonel of "Maxima" can not speak you estonian - go to "Rimi", there are a lot of estonians work and will serve you in estonian for sure. If managers of "Maxima" want to increase their income they will hire estonian-speaking perssonel or pay for language lessons.
Now "language police" gives penalties. Why? Let the business decide. And that is discrimination for non-estonian part of population.
And there is "languafe police" in russian schools also. Ok, I agree school chief should know estonian good. But why perfect estonian needed for teacher of russian language and literature? Or music? Or fisics? Thats crazy.

Quote :
Eh. Finland didn't get it's independency from Sweden, but from Russia, so it really wasn't a deal between Finnish and Swedish authorities to set swedish as official language.
Yes I know that. I meant after many years of Sweden domination Finland was more or less tolerant. But I am sure there was a lot of reasons not to like each other.

Quote :
Most of the Russians were brought to Estonia illegally according to some Swiss convent of occupation, and SU owning Baltic as members have been found to be criminal and illegal already in 1946.
By the way, there were no occupation, you know? Wink
As far as I understand you are talking about Geneve convention of 12 April 1949 year. So, deeds of 41th year were found criminal in 46th year by convension of 49th year? Sounds strange, doesnt it? Besides, that conventios is about war period, not for peace period. Dont you want to say guy from England can not go for a work to Scotland because it was occupied by England some time ago? I dont think so. I do not say deportation from Estonia was a good thing. But going for a work in Estonia - that was legal thing for sure.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Sat Jun 09, 2007 10:48 am

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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:20 pm

Tasuja wrote:
Wow.. 40 years!! Laughing Is that history now study in estonian schools? Estonia was independent country for thousands of years, and only 40 years ago russians came here? Laughing Super! Please send my greetings to uncle Mart.

For your info, russians live in Estonia much and much longer. Estonia was a part of Russian Imperia in 18th and 19th centuries. Yes, many people came here from other republics of USSR in 1950 - 90. But they came here to live and work as it was legal, you know. All KGB agents were sent out in the beginning of independence and I do not see any reason why not to give citizenship for all the rest population.
Finland was under Sweden rule for many years, as you said. But finnish politics had enough brains to keep good relationships with them after getting freedom by leading certain rules. Estonia politics did not. And that is the real difference.

Ment the "40 year russians" that were BROUGHT into estonia during CCCP era. not the ones who have moved there by THEMSELVES during last 10 000 years.
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:30 pm

Tasuja wrote:

Let the people decide what language they want to talk.

yeah, it's their decission then too if they want a job in Estonia or not.
it's about russians' decissions, it's not our problem then.

Tasuja wrote:
Let the business decide.
you know the saying, "money talks"

if a customer cant have service in estonian in Estonia, he will go somewhere he can get his service in estonian.. that would mean that the first company would lose a customer, becouse their worker doesnt speak estonian... so what's the point in hiring a russian only speaking russian???
it's not discrimination, it's business.. its now life goes.
if you want to speak russian only, go to Russia and speak russian only.

Tasuja wrote:
By the way, there were no occupation, you know? Wink

where did you learn that, from a russian history book?

russia occupated estonia since the end of world war II... or you mean that russia "liberated" estonians?
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PostSubject: Re: About human rights in Estonia   Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Tasuja wrote:
Wow.. 40 years!! Laughing Is that history now study in estonian schools? Estonia was independent country for thousands of years, and only 40 years ago russians came here? Laughing Super! Please send my greetings to uncle Mart.
As others have already answered, he meant the time when Russians were brought in. They were brought, that's a fact. There was even a term for it- russification.


Tasuja wrote:
All KGB agents were sent out in the beginning of independence and I do not see any reason why not to give citizenship for all the rest population.
So they would have one reason less to learn Estonian? No thanks...

You said they should have a choice of choosing what languages to learn- well they do have. But they must realise that with every choice comes consequences. Less Russians speaking Estonian is really not going to help with the integration.

And your example of going to Rimi instead of Maxima was also kinda stupid. I have to run around the town to find an Estonian speaking store clerk? What about stores, that a town usually has only one (with really narrow selection of goods)? What about smaller towns or villages that usually have one or two stores of a type?

Without the language policy (not language police), all store owners could just hire ethnic Russians, who usually ask less money. That would leave me even without the choice of runnig around the city.

As vJ said, no one in Finland would hire anyone to serve customers, who won't speak Finnish. I'm pretty sure it's the same in England with English, in Spain with Spanish and in Russia with Russian.

And the school teachers should know Estonian becouse:
1) It should be an example to the students
2) The school system is moving towards education in Estonian in all subjects.
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