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 Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.

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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri May 25, 2007 12:46 pm

What do you know about Finno-Ugric people who live in Russia today?
What do think/know about their life and culture?


Last edited by on Fri May 25, 2007 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Earthland



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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri May 25, 2007 1:19 pm

I think quit few of them live in Russia. But dunno. In Petser there are many Estonians (even my own relatives). I don't know about other Finn-Ugric people.
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Communist Gipsy



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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri May 25, 2007 2:32 pm

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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri May 25, 2007 10:32 pm

I know that in most territories they aren't let to use their language officially. Hungarians have good relations with hanti and manysi people (chanty and manyshy in English maybe?) and only a few of the children speaks those languages as their first language Sad Our closes language-relatives Sad
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kost



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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon May 28, 2007 12:15 pm

Kiskun wrote:
I know that in most territories they aren't let to use their language officially. Hungarians have good relations with hanti and manysi people (chanty and manyshy in English maybe?) and only a few of the children speaks those languages as their first language Sad Our closes language-relatives Sad

No I think both Hungarians and Finns can use their language quite officially. Well at least in Russia they and other Finno-Ugric people can. E.g. many of official languages in Russia are Finno-Ugric and they are taught in schools, even though they are small minorities even in their regions.

Of course there is many problems with near-extinct languages like Votic or Izhorian, some other problems also exist, many of them are being dealt with, but
Quote :
I know that in most territories they aren't let to use their language officially.
is someone's intentional and provocative lie.
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Oberst Schultz



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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon May 28, 2007 1:16 pm

well after the collapse of the soviet union karelia still remains under the rule of the russians. karelia's rightful owner are the finnish brothers. and i doubt that finno-ugric people are allowed to use their language there.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon May 28, 2007 3:25 pm

kost wrote:
Kiskun wrote:
I know that in most territories they aren't let to use their language officially. Hungarians have good relations with hanti and manysi people (chanty and manyshy in English maybe?) and only a few of the children speaks those languages as their first language Sad Our closes language-relatives Sad

No I think both Hungarians and Finns can use their language quite officially. Well at least in Russia they and other Finno-Ugric people can. E.g. many of official languages in Russia are Finno-Ugric and they are taught in schools, even though they are small minorities even in their regions.

Of course there is many problems with near-extinct languages like Votic or Izhorian, some other problems also exist, many of them are being dealt with, but
Quote :
I know that in most territories they aren't let to use their language officially.
is someone's intentional and provocative lie.

I didn't mean Hungarians and Finns Very Happy
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:01 pm

Tere everybody!

I’ve just returned from ***, a small wonderful town with quiet winding streets, picturesque pond surrounded by amazing pinery. I had the time of my life, it was absolutely amazing there – I enjoyed every second of the three-day trip. We hiked trails in the woods and just played the fool at home… I met all my friends I hadn’t seen for a long time. We smoked some half-legal weed Shocked and I travelled into space… It was the best weekend ever! Very Happy

What has it got to do with the topic? Nothing. Just posted it here because I am the author of this topic Laughing
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:45 pm

/\Ego Very Happy

Anyway, I found some Mari, Erzyan, Karelian, Mokshan, Mansi, Khanty, Udmurt songs in youtoube. Thought that you might be interested. I noticed couple of similarities between Estonian and Mari languages when I was looking the titles of the songs ("Lum veleš" (snow is falling) is in Estonian "Lumi langeb/Sajab", "Olmapu"="Őunapuu"). And Erzyan "Sjoks" (autumn) is quite similar with Estonian "Sügis". Desifrating the words by listening is unluckily impossible because of strong Russian accent.

But as we are talking about Maris, they seem to get a little better thanks to Estonia's and Finland's support. Maris got their own radio "Mari-El" quite lately and they have a newspaper, too, as much as I know. Of course situation is still bad there (Mariland is the poorest part of Russia) but it doesn't seem to be that hopeless any more. Maybe it's even possible to save this nation Smile

Erzyan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNKBr9DR3L8
Mari: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO1d3coI18s , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1m6jMFZjqs
Karelian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHD4N3ODH08
Mokshan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNgfqCq7GWc
Mansi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ZQjwvNkSI
Khanty: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmjYHN770n0&mode=related&search=
Udmurt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNeCaLH52B0&mode=related&search=
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:14 pm

ÁÁÁ! I didn't know Khanty numbers are so similar to Hungarian ones! WOW, I have never felt this feeling, I could understand someone speaking another language just because of my Hungarian. Only numbers, but still...
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sun Jul 08, 2007 6:11 pm

Quote :
Another finno-ugric in this forum I see. Do you speak this language in home? How about local schools?

Well, actually I’m half komi-permian, half god-only-knows-who… I’ve heard that my mom’s grandmother was Polish… I do speak my language but very badly. Shame on me! But people can speak it everywhere, there is a radio, tv, and newspapers. They study komi-permian at local schools for 9 years, but due to financial problems there are less and less schools where you can study this language.
Quote :

I read some time ago that some Russian nationalists from Zhirik joke party ran Mari Republic and were quite harsh towards the locals. What party rule in your region and do they cause any problems to Komi-Permian people?

The same as everywhere – motherfucking “edinaya rossia”. The good thing is that they got much less votes than they expected on last elections. Hope they die. Komi-Perm region is in very bad economical shape actually, and although it has become much better lately, it’s still not enough. This area remains relatively poor. I think komi-permians should stand for themselves, but not with the guns in their hands Smile The biggest problem is poverty and we must work hard to improve our lives ourselves, not wait till Moscow comes to help us, ‘cause they won’t. Moscow isn’t interesting in developing regions economy… Have you heard that there are two Russias? Moscow, St. Petersburg and the rest of the country.

Gotta go. To be continued…
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:00 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

The same as everywhere – motherfucking “edinaya rossia”. The good thing is that they got much less votes than they expected on last elections. Hope they die.
So what party is the most popular among ethnic Komi-Permians? For which party do you voted?

Quote :
Have you heard that there are two Russias? Moscow, St. Petersburg and the rest of the country.
many times Cool
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:30 am

By the way, Nowhere Man, I've heard that many Finno-Ugrians in Russia feel embarrassed because of their ethnic origin and it's not very popular to be a Fenno-Ugric. Is that true?

http://www.postimees.ee/100707/esileht/siseuudised/271404.php (eesti keeles)
http://rus.postimees.ee/100707/glavnaja/za_rubezhom/19214.php (po-russkii)
They are writing that Putin doesn't invite Estonian government to a culture festival of Finno-Ugric peoples that takes place in Mordva, in Russia. At the same time, Finland and Hungary are invited. Another political gesture, but that one really makes me angry Evil or Very Mad
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:23 pm

Helena wrote:
By the way, Nowhere Man, I've heard that many Finno-Ugrians in Russia feel embarrassed because of their ethnic origin and it's not very popular to be a Fenno-Ugric. Is that true?

Well, hate to say that, but yes, it's true. Finno-Ugric speak Russian with a funny accent usually and they are often luaghed at for that... There's no hatred towards them (us) but yes, they feel embarrased sometimes. Especially, teenagers, you know... As I said, I speak my language very badly, just 'cause I never used it. My grandparents spoke komi at home all the time, so I understand everything, but I never studied it at our school and I can't speak it so well Sad But you know, I have many russian-only speaking friends and relatives and who live in this area and they often ask me how to say this, how to say that... However, I make friends with decent people only, so..hehe Smile

Quote :

http://www.postimees.ee/100707/esileht/siseuudised/271404.php (eesti keeles)
http://rus.postimees.ee/100707/glavnaja/za_rubezhom/19214.php (po-russkii)
They are writing that Putin doesn't invite Estonian government to a culture festival of Finno-Ugric peoples that takes place in Mordva, in Russia. At the same time, Finland and Hungary are invited. Another political gesture, but that one really makes me angry Evil or Very Mad

I recognize Putin Sad Btw, he visited this area once... He talked about importance of the uniqe culture and stuff... liar
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:36 pm

Quote :
So what party is the most popular among ethnic Komi-Permians? For which party do you voted?

The same as among ethnic Russians... There's no special party for komi-permians. Those who wnat to do something in politics join in any party they like... Komi-Permians are very inactive actually... it won't do any good to us..
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:49 pm

Quote :
They are writing that Putin doesn't invite Estonian government to a culture festival of Finno-Ugric peoples that takes place in Mordva, in Russia. At the same time, Finland and Hungary are invited. Another political gesture, but that one really makes me angry

Hmm... i've read a bit more... actually, estonian representatives have been invited... as for the goverments, just ignore it..
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:42 pm

That minority thing is about the same that we have with seto/setu/wőro people in Estonia. They live in South-East Estonia, there are few of them on the other side of border (near Pskov, or Petseri as we call it in Estonia). They are probably going to die out because they, especially youth, don't think it's very cool to be themselves. Usual Estonians don't think any bad things about them, it's just setu's who don't want to remain.

Btw, what would be your strategies and plans if it would be your task to save a little people who is not very interested in themselves? I think the youth is the most important thing that we should deal with. Definitely every child should have a chance to learn in his/her mother language, there should be also some pop culture around the language. For example, what about pop music written in the language? Right now there is no life around most of the Fenno-Ugric languages, only history.

But about Putin and the Fenno-Ugric festival. It would've been weird anyway if he had invited our president. They are quite like enemies, aren't they?

Btw, I found something quite interesting - a research about what Russian people think about Estonian people.
http://www.etv24.ee/index.php?0574875 , http://www.postimees.ee/090707/esileht/siseuudised/271281.php (eesti keeles)
http://bd.fom.ru/report/map/projects/dominant/dom0719/domt0719_2/d071910 (po-russkii). .
"Uuringu andmeil suhtub 42 protsenti venemaalastest Eesti kodanikesse üldiselt positiivselt, kolmandik negatiivselt ning iga neljas jäi oma seisukoha välja ütlemisel hätta. "
According to the researches, 42% of Russians think Estonians are basicly positive, about one third think they are negative and about one fourth don't know what to say.
Well, they'd probably all hate us if they knew about most Estonians' point of view about the government's work.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:09 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Helena wrote:
By the way, Nowhere Man, I've heard that many Finno-Ugrians in Russia feel embarrassed because of their ethnic origin and it's not very popular to be a Fenno-Ugric. Is that true?

Well, hate to say that, but yes, it's true. Finno-Ugric speak Russian with a funny accent usually and they are often luaghed at for that... There's no hatred towards them (us) but yes, they feel embarrased sometimes. Especially, teenagers, you know... As I said, I speak my language very badly, just 'cause I never used it. My grandparents spoke komi at home all the time, so I understand everything, but I never studied it at our school and I can't speak it so well Sad But you know, I have many russian-only speaking friends and relatives and who live in this area and they often ask me how to say this, how to say that... However, I make friends with decent people only, so..hehe Smile

Quote :

http://www.postimees.ee/100707/esileht/siseuudised/271404.php (eesti keeles)
http://rus.postimees.ee/100707/glavnaja/za_rubezhom/19214.php (po-russkii)
They are writing that Putin doesn't invite Estonian government to a culture festival of Finno-Ugric peoples that takes place in Mordva, in Russia. At the same time, Finland and Hungary are invited. Another political gesture, but that one really makes me angry Evil or Very Mad

I recognize Putin Sad Btw, he visited this area once... He talked about importance of the uniqe culture and stuff... liar

Ohh! You are of Komi origin? Is that true that you also terminate numbers like: 40,50,60...with van/ven?
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:09 am

I have read that Komi Republic is rich in oil resources. Polish company Petroinvest control some. Do the average citizen have something out of this? Some time ago I read article about how live of people in Kamtchanka (If I recall correctly) oblast improved because Abramovich did invest some money over there.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:11 am

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
I have read that Komi Republic is rich in oil resources. Polish company Petroinvest control some. Do the average citizen have something out of this? Some time ago I read article about how live of people in Kamtchanka (If I recall correctly) oblast improved because Abramovich did invest some money over there.

There are two komi regions here. Komi republic, the one you're talking about, and komi-permian region, that's where I live. This region is very poor. Althogh the economical situation improved a little it is still rather bad, even comparing with other areas in Russia. There is not much oil here but since komi-okrug has been united with Perm area a few years ago, everything controled by Lukoil and I have no idea how much we get of it... As far as know most of the income goes to Perm. We get various ethnic festivals instead. They pretend to support our culture.
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svybski



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PostSubject: Komi's oil, not russian   Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:23 am

[quote="NowhereMan"]
Rzeczpospolita wrote:
We get various ethnic festivals instead. They pretend to support our culture.

this sounds really unfair, man.

the price of oil goes up and the oilfields of russia suffer from depletion (check out e.g. theoildrum.com). the threatening perminant decline in the oilfields of russia means that they need to empty the oilfiels faster so that they can keep up with the current levels of supply. There are method to do that faster, but it is costly.

The problem is that this manouveur/method actually partially destroys the oilfield and after this you cannot recover all the possible oil from the field. I hope they dont use that method. (more accurately put, it diminishes the value of the oil field by lessening the amount of economically extractable oil.. :O difficult to explain, but anyway! )

If russia collapses and the Komi (or Perm) area gets its independence, this might mean that russia have had enjoyed all the oil revenues and Komi is left with empty, ruin oilfields. Oil would be important for development of Komi area.

I hope you get your independence as soon as possible..
or do you even want it??
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:22 am

Quote :
I hope you get your independence as soon as possible..
or do you even want it??

Well.. Yes, but only a certain level of independence from Moscow and Perm... like thay have in Tatarstan maybe... hard to explain really... i wish Finland occupied us actually Smile)
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smpt

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:57 am

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I hope you get your independence as soon as possible..
or do you even want it??

Well.. Yes, but only a certain level of independence from Moscow and Perm... like thay have in Tatarstan maybe... hard to explain really... i wish Finland occupied us actually Smile)

There's a saying here: ''Estonian border to the wall of China!'' Estonia is ''almost'' Finland, we just have shorter words and our history is a bit different - besides Swedes and Russians we were also ruled by Danes, Germans, Poles and Soviets. Very Happy

I would like the Finno-Ugric nations in Russia to get independence, but it's probable they can't. First off, they're usually a minority on their own land. Many have been Russified (entire Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Finnics), many are on their way to become Russified. Next, there are natural resources on their lands, Moscow won't give those up. And finally, they have never had proper statehood as we have.. Sad
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Finno-Ugric peoples in Russia.   Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:44 pm

smpt wrote:
NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I hope you get your independence as soon as possible..
or do you even want it??

Well.. Yes, but only a certain level of independence from Moscow and Perm... like thay have in Tatarstan maybe... hard to explain really... i wish Finland occupied us actually Smile)

There's a saying here: ''Estonian border to the wall of China!'' Estonia is ''almost'' Finland, we just have shorter words and our history is a bit different - besides Swedes and Russians we were also ruled by Danes, Germans, Poles and Soviets. Very Happy

I would like the Finno-Ugric nations in Russia to get independence, but it's probable they can't. First off, they're usually a minority on their own land. Many have been Russified (entire Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Finnics), many are on their way to become Russified. Next, there are natural resources on their lands, Moscow won't give those up. And finally, they have never had proper statehood as we have.. Sad

Yeah, and when our prime-minister (whose work in other parts I wouldn't comment otherwise) asked Putin for some steps for the Finno-Ugrian folks' independence, he simply made a joke of the question Neutral Some weeks ago at the Finno-Ugrian meeting.
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svybski



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PostSubject: minorities will get their indepence   Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:04 pm

Kiskun wrote:

I would like the Finno-Ugric nations in Russia to get independence, but it's probable they can't. First off, they're usually a minority on their own land. Many have been Russified (entire Northwestern Russia used to be inhabited by Finnics), many are on their way to become Russified. Next, there are natural resources on their lands, Moscow won't give those up. And finally, they have never had proper statehood as we have.. Sad

Yeah, and when our prime-minister (whose work in other parts I wouldn't comment otherwise) asked Putin for some steps for the Finno-Ugrian folks' independence, he simply made a joke of the question Neutral Some weeks ago at the Finno-Ugrian meeting.

im pretty sure that minorities will get the indepence.

Any country which does not respect its minorities will have problems sometime in the future. Ussr collapsed, and so will russia do. Also population structure of russia tells us that it's end is coming. Less than half of russian people are russians (actual number could be much, much lower). Secondly, it is so vast country that it cannot defend the distant and rural eastern areas. Thirdly, the regions do not want to be slaves of moscow/petersburg anymore. Fourthly, moslem (muslim) population grows faster than russians especially in southern regions. there are many reasons more..

The current economical success is based on oil/natural gas revenues only and it is NOT sustainable. In order to have sustainable business structures, country's economy should be based on something re-plenishable. They are not creating or inventing anything, they just destroy the oilfields. And destroying continues in chechnya, as I have mentioned many times (sorry!). Shocked Sad

How many countries can sustain themselves, if all they do is to destroy?
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