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 The great changings around 1989

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Are you satisfied with the Changings around the late 1980's - early 1990's in your country?
I am completely satisfied, my country was very smart
40%
 40% [ 4 ]
It was good, but some things should have been made less radical
10%
 10% [ 1 ]
It was good, but some things should have been made more radical
20%
 20% [ 2 ]
I am rather disappointed in it. We should've had a slower transitional period to avoid poverty, unemployment etc
0%
 0% [ 0 ]
It is good we are not having the former system anymore, but this one isn't any better.
20%
 20% [ 2 ]
I want socialism back!
10%
 10% [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 10
 

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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:32 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Oh.. that was Polish lambent humour! Shocked
Next time let me know when you're kidding and when you're trying to insult me...
When you see a smile with one blinded eye, expect a joke Razz

Quote :

And now western leaders say that some countries are allowed to have their interests and others are not.

They are wrong. However such interests shoud be reduced to your own territories and these where a host tolerate you.
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bobhatersfriend



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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:47 pm



Last edited by bobhatersfriend on Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:17 pm

Once again, this is not question of trust but common interests. Poland did not agree yet, we still negotiate. If Americans offer something that we consider not enough, our goverment will reject this offer.
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KOPER1



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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:29 pm

[quote="Rzeczpospolita"]
KOPER1 wrote:


I cannot understand how can you blame Poland, Hungary or Bulgaria. You know very well that these countries were occupied by Soviets.

I wrote "Although those countries doesn't have a choice other then do whatever Moscow dictate them..." But anyway - who would you blame for killing your best friend, seven years old boy? The Kremlin's regiment or drunken Polish soldier who pull the trigger in front of school doors? Of course both, but - did the soldier get direct order for killing children? I don't think so.
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KOPER1



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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:45 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I notice something that scares me a little and that is Putin's reaction in that anti-missile shield "causa". Guess he never agree with the lost of his old satellite-countries. Well people, no matter how much he is talkin' about democracy and new era, don't let history repeat and also don't forget where he came from. People can change, but he can't.

What do you mean "lost of HIS satellite-countries"? They have never been HIS, he has been the president of Russia for 7 years something...

Of course HIS! What do YOU mean, there is difference between old CCCP and Russia nowadays? No there is not, just lost a few of their "colonies" and had to change the way how to present their communist politic to the world, no really change at all. I can still smell the arrogance of "BIG RUSSIA" - or better - red CCCP from him. But those days are over, gone forever.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:03 pm

KOPER1 wrote:

I wrote "Although those countries doesn't have a choice other then do whatever Moscow dictate them..." But anyway - who would you blame for killing your best friend, seven years old boy? The Kremlin's regiment or drunken Polish soldier who pull the trigger in front of school doors? Of course both, but - did the soldier get direct order for killing children? I don't think so.

You should provide some source to confirm your accusation towards Polish soldiers. According to my information Polish troops crossed border and occupied part of your country. Czechs did not fight them and otherwise. During all time of intervention only one incident was noted, near Cervena Voda Polish soldiers were attacked from armoured personnel carrier SKOT. Attackers escaped, nobody was hurt.

Source in Polish.
http://www.historycy.pl/Strony/Artykuly/2005%2003%2004/1968.html
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KOPER1



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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 6:40 pm

[quote="Rzeczpospolita"]
KOPER1 wrote:

I wrote "Although those countries doesn't have a choice other then do whatever Moscow dictate them..." But anyway - who would you blame for killing your best friend, seven years old boy? The Kremlin's regiment or drunken Polish soldier who pull the trigger in front of school doors? Of course both, but - did the soldier get direct order for killing children? I don't think so.

You should provide some source to confirm your accusation towards Polish soldiers. According to my information Polish troops crossed border and occupied part of your country. Czechs did not fight them and otherwise. During all time of intervention only one incident was noted, near Cervena Voda Polish soldiers were attacked from armoured personnel carrier SKOT. Attackers escaped, nobody was hurt.

Source in Polish.
http://www.historycy.pl/Strony/Artykuly/2005%2003%2004/1968.html[/qu
ote]

Well, that is how historical facts are screwed up. I can't remember that exact link, will try to find it and get back to you. Anyway, there is document of gen. Jaruzelski, askin' Czech people for forgiving him. You can read here that more than 200 people were killed, many more wounded, captured and bring to Poland for INVESTIGATION !!! Also they said (the last sentence) that nobody was ever bring to justice, except one Polish soldier as an example, for killing two people.

http://www.radio.cz/cz/clanek/69860

There is also a lots of info in Polish language, did you know the name "Ryszard Siwiec " ?

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryszard_Siwiec
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:34 pm

Ok, I have found some information that one Polish soldier killed two Czechs but nothing more. This was rather his own stupidity than official orders. Your source don’t claim that Polish soldiers killed so many people. Of course if you have something else in Czech language I would be interesed to find out what is about.

Generally this case stinks with Soviet propaganda. Soviet troops committed almost all these crimes and only one Polish soldier was sentenced as an example. Soviets also bring them to Poland for investigation not incidentally but to put the blame on us.

I did not heard about Siwiec before. He should rather try to kill some important commie than this…

About Jaruzelski, I never heard him to apologize his own nation for what he has done at home.
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KOPER1



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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:01 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:


About Jaruzelski, I never heard him to apologize his own nation for what he has done at home.

Well guess nobody in Polish history never asked him to do so, and it's kinda late to do it now. Funny thing (funny now, after all those years) is that from "Warszaw Pact" only Josiph B.Tito and N.Ceaucescu were against this occupation, both dictators. And Albania use it as a reason to get out of the "Pact".
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:12 pm

People interesed would rather wish to bring him to justice than hear such cheap talk.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:17 pm

Quote :
Of course HIS! What do YOU mean, there is difference between old CCCP and Russia nowadays? No there is not, just lost a few of their "colonies" and had to change the way how to present their communist politic to the world, no really change at all. I can still smell the arrogance of "BIG RUSSIA" - or better - red CCCP from him. But those days are over, gone forever.

Well, if you can "smell" something.. ok.. I won't argue with you...
I lived in Russia (or RSFSR for the fans of exactness Wink ) in the 80s when it was a part of USSR and I live here now, but I don't smell anything like that. Just a few TV channels trying to convience me that everything is just fine in Russia thanks to Putin, but they don't sound and look so cool 'cause the are many more sources and I'm not blind actually... What else? Oh! those jerks "Nashi"!... but they rather smell like idiots than communists! Everybody just laughs at them. Except poor Estonian embassador What a Face

And stop accusing Russia in USSR's crimes! russian people suffered from soviet regime much more than you all together did. I wrote about it here. Though you don't care.. for you it's very convinient - there's always an enemy to blame... psychiatrists know how to explain that.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:50 pm

KOPER1 wrote:


We Czechs had those "50 years of CCCP occupation" also. It could be way much less, if it wasn't for Poland, Hungary, DDR, Bulgaria and esp. C C C P in 1968! And that's our biggest problem, we still can't forget it.

I understand your anger, and though everybody was forced, yeah,even though it is stupid that there is someone wanting to develope and others knock him/her down.
But I must add that in 1989 the oppositional Hungarian politicians went to Prague and protested with Czechoslovakians in the Velvet Revolution, fought for their freedom and they apologized for that Hungarians also helped to knock down 1968!
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:02 pm

P3rk3l3! Damn, no no no! aah, I feel such a shame that I missed such a nice quarrel! It is just what I wanted! Oh wait a minute, I can still catch up!
*Catches up the ''Conversation of International Argues"*

*cough*

Quote :

We Czechs had those "50 years of CCCP occupation" also. It could be way much less, if it wasn't for Poland, Hungary, DDR, Bulgaria and esp. C C C P in 1968! And that's our biggest problem, we still can't forget it.

It wasn't Poland itself these were the ''Warsaw Pact'' Forces.
And if it wouldn't actually stop the revolt in Czechoslovakia, than eventually the USSR army would take action.

Quote :

And stop accusing Russia in USSR's crimes! russian people suffered from soviet regime much more than you all together did. I wrote about it here. Though you don't care.. for you it's very convinient - there's always an enemy to blame... psychiatrists know how to explain that.

Maybe, but as far as I know most of the nation in the early XXth century wanted communism.

So the conclusion is if it weren't for Russia or the Collapsing Russians ''Empire'', there would be no soviet ocupation over Europe, there wouldn't be if the Germans wouldn't let pass Lenin over their borders towards Russia.
Atleast we had 20 years less of soviet occcupation since the Polish-Bolshevic war was won by us, yes Polish.

And let's get back to the modern times, we had made a peaceful protests ourselves and wuallah! We're democratic, than you've managed to follow us. If it weren't for that, the soviet occupation would last a bit longer, it would eventually collapse but I believe it would be a more bloody ending.


Last edited by on Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:10 pm

KOPER1 wrote:
Rzeczpospolita wrote:


About Jaruzelski, I never heard him to apologize his own nation for what he has done at home.

Well guess nobody in Polish history never asked him to do so, and it's kinda late to do it now. Funny thing (funny now, after all those years) is that from "Warszaw Pact" only Josiph B.Tito and N.Ceaucescu were against this occupation, both dictators. And Albania use it as a reason to get out of the "Pact".

Jospih B.Tito and n.Ceaucescu were communists aswell.

Quote :
thats actually true =__=

People trust the USA to much....

Oh I wonder why, that's a better option rather beign under inluence of Russia. I don't think they trust too much.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:13 pm

Quote :
Maybe, but as far as I know most of the nation in the early XXth century wanted communism.

There was a civil war actually and millions were killed... if most of the people wanted communism, soviet union would have been a pretty nice place to live... "imagine all the people sharing all the world..."
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:17 pm

Prety much of Russians wanted that at the begining, later they woke up from the dreamland. Idea
Doubt if it would be nice just because people want it, communism made by Lenin and Stalin wasn't good.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 4:25 pm

«Trayus» wrote:
Prety much of Russians wanted that at the begining, later they woke up from the dreamland. Idea
Doubt if it would be nice just because people want it, communism made by Lenin and Stalin wasn't good.

Well, it wasn't communism... No it was something very different affraid
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:15 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
«Trayus» wrote:
Prety much of Russians wanted that at the begining, later they woke up from the dreamland. Idea
Doubt if it would be nice just because people want it, communism made by Lenin and Stalin wasn't good.

Well, it wasn't communism... No it was something very different affraid

Everybody knows what means the original idea of "communism". But as nowhere on Earth was any other kind of communism made than what we saw, we keep the right to call our former system as communism.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:27 pm

Kiskun wrote:
NowhereMan wrote:
«Trayus» wrote:
Prety much of Russians wanted that at the begining, later they woke up from the dreamland. Idea
Doubt if it would be nice just because people want it, communism made by Lenin and Stalin wasn't good.

Well, it wasn't communism... No it was something very different affraid

Everybody knows what means the original idea of "communism". But as nowhere on Earth was any other kind of communism made than what we saw, we keep the right to call our former system as communism.

So, lots of people supported "the original idea of communism" (and lots of people didn't) but no russian supported what happened then... of course quit many people "loved" Stalin but you know that was a sort of mass psychosis...
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: The great changings around 1989   Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:37 pm

Yeah.
Imagine, I have a Chinese contact on MSN and when I showed her this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnYXbJ_bcLc she was shocked, and totally surprised, and asked me: "Why were people so happy about that it ended???" Very Happy
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