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 Mart Laar

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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:09 pm

Maybe move the railroad discussion somewhere else Razz This topic is about Mr. Laar...

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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:53 am

Hypno wrote:
Maybe move the railroad discussion somewhere else Razz This topic is about Mr. Laar...
Yes, and about his deeds which we are right now discussing.

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Helena wrote:
With the privatization of Estonian railway there were also two other problems:
1) the privatizater didn't fulfill his contractual duties (didn't invest an agreed sum of money) which caused the bad situation of railway;
Any consequences for investor?
I don't know that, I must ask from someone who knows a little bit more about it.

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Quote :
2) the railway is the most important source of profit for Estonia. Most of our transits is going by this way. If the privatizer would have had an idea to sell it, for example, to Gazprom or to Russia itself, it would've been quite bad.

Lithuania had similar problem with Mazeiku refinery, sold once to American company. Russians did them a lot of problems with supply and finally Yukos bought it. Later Putin jailed Khodorkovski and Polish state owned company Orlen bought Mazeiku. Now Lithuanians might be 100% sure that Russians don’t take over this strategic company. Of course Russians already causing problem with supplies but this is not enough to get rid of us Smile Conclussion is that you should resell this company to Polish railway monopoly, although they will turn the most profitable business in to dust but don’t sell to Russians for sure.
lol!
Who could be sure that your government wouldn't sell it to some businessman after some time? If there would come some biig financial problems, for example. I personally don't trust businessmen much (because I know some and they would even sell their grandmother if the price would be big enough). They are usually not very patriotic and are mostly up only to profit. And they would quite frankly sell it to some Russian company if the deal brang them a lot of money.
Anyway, I think it's good for country to have some most profitable companies.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:37 pm

Helena wrote:

Who could be sure that your government wouldn't sell it to some businessman after some time? If there would come some biig financial problems, for example. I personally don't trust businessmen much (because I know some and they would even sell their grandmother if the price would be big enough). They are usually not very patriotic and are mostly up only to profit. And they would quite frankly sell it to some Russian company if the deal brang them a lot of money.
Anyway, I think it's good for country to have some most profitable companies.

On the other hand we are all aware how patriotic, selfless and competent are politicians in management boards. Laughing


One of leading Polish dailies added DVD with biography of Milton Friedman to today's edition. Estonia have good adversing, because is showed as one of primary examples of success of his theories. Mart Laar spoken praising Friedman. Perhaps you watched this film?
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:58 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Helena wrote:
With the privatization of Estonian railway there were also two other problems:
1) the privatizater didn't fulfill his contractual duties (didn't invest an agreed sum of money) which caused the bad situation of railway;
Any consequences for investor?
When Estonia saw that the company wasn't doing its duty, the country brought it to justice and asked a penalty to the company. But as the contract of the railway was badly formulated (it didn't say exactly how were the investments supposed to be spent) there was actual chance that the company would win the court case. Therefore Estonia decided to avoid the risk and brought the railway back though it cost a lot.
Of course, if anyone would have known about the happenings with bronze soldier they would have waited until the April. As the numbers of the transits have decreased greatly after that, it would be very cheap to buy the railway now.

Quote :
On the other hand we are all aware how patriotic, selfless and competent are politicians in management boards. Laughing
I don't know how is it in Poland but in Estonia politicians are mostly doing everything to earn people's support. Selling the railway is definitely not supported by people. These politicians who would sell the company would lose their job soon. Therefore, as politicians mostly want to keep their job, they won't sell the railway.
At the same time, the businessmen don't care at all what people think about their deeds so they would have no impediment from selling it.

Quote :
One of leading Polish dailies added DVD with biography of Milton Friedman to today's edition. Estonia have good adversing, because is showed as one of primary examples of success of his theories. Mart Laar spoken praising Friedman. Perhaps you watched this film?
Haven't seen.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:53 pm

Helena wrote:

Of course, if anyone would have known about the happenings with bronze soldier they would have waited until the April. As the numbers of the transits have decreased greatly after that, it would be very cheap to buy the railway now.

Conclusion is simple, amount of transits is at least not dependent from who owns railways or even more, perhaps private owner would come to agreement with Russians, something that Estonian government failed to do.

Quote :
I don't know how is it in Poland but in Estonia politicians are mostly doing everything to earn people's support. Selling the railway is definitely not supported by people. These politicians who would sell the company would lose their job soon. Therefore, as politicians mostly want to keep their job, they won't sell the railway.

I doubt taht Estonian politicians are so much different from all others. Thanks to God that they do not do everything what voters would wish them to do. Some things simply cannot be decided by people whom have no clue about the subject. Of course there is still many things to do for politicians that they under pressure wont do even if they should. Only very good politicians are ready to break the barrier of populism and put forward unpopular but necessary reforms. However this should be in agreement with their well known political agenda. How they will gain support from voters? There is a lot of BS themes covered by mass media, a bit of cheap talk, chunk of demagogy and two or three meaningless populist decisions will help them to be elected once again. So, the public opinion will gets its own bone as well.

Quote :

At the same time, the businessmen don't care at all what people think about their deeds so they would have no impediment from selling it.

Please explain me, why they should think what others think,about what to do with their own property? Smile

Quote :
Haven't seen.

The title is, The Power of Choice
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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:30 am

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Helena wrote:

Of course, if anyone would have known about the happenings with bronze soldier they would have waited until the April. As the numbers of the transits have decreased greatly after that, it would be very cheap to buy the railway now.
Conclusion is simple, amount of transits is at least not dependent from who owns railways or even more, perhaps private owner would come to agreement with Russians, something that Estonian government failed to do.
The problem is that Russia even doesn't admit that they have reduced the transits. Maybe the owner would've been able to convince Russia to keep the transits as it was but I doubt that. Most of the profit have always gone to Estonia and Russia knows that. Decreasing the transits was undoubtedly something that was meant to be against Estonia.

Quote :
Helena wrote:
I don't know how is it in Poland but in Estonia politicians are mostly doing everything to earn people's support. Selling the railway is definitely not supported by people. These politicians who would sell the company would lose their job soon. Therefore, as politicians mostly want to keep their job, they won't sell the railway.

I doubt that Estonian politicians are so much different from all others. Thanks to God that they do not do everything what voters would wish them to do. Some things simply cannot be decided by people whom have no clue about the subject. Of course there is still many things to do for politicians that they under pressure wont do even if they should. Only very good politicians are ready to break the barrier of populism and put forward unpopular but necessary reforms. However this should be in agreement with their well known political agenda. How they will gain support from voters? There is a lot of BS themes covered by mass media, a bit of cheap talk, chunk of demagogy and two or three meaningless populist decisions will help them to be elected once again. So, the public opinion will gets its own bone as well.
There are, of course, some politicians who are a little bit more daring than the others. Most of them are still just populists, though.
Getting back popularity after some unpopular decisions is sometimes not very possible. We can take Juhan Parts, the former Prime Minister, for example. Even though several years have passed since he lost his power, people still remember and dislike him. Maybe he can try again after a decade or something.

Anyway, I'm sometimes really very happy that some idiots - sorry but thats the way it is - can't bring their reforms into life. For example, some time ago we had a Defence Minister Jürgen Ligi who was seriously talking about losing the time service in army and replacing it with payed army only. I don't know why people who don't know anything about their specialty go to politics?

Quote :

Helena wrote:
At the same time, the businessmen don't care at all what people think about their deeds so they would have no impediment from selling it.

Please explain me, why they should think what others think, about what to do with their own property? Smile
They don't and shouldn't Smile That's just why it's better not to sell them anything important.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:04 am

Helena wrote:

They don't and shouldn't Smile That's just why it's better not to sell them anything important.

You still need to proof that politicians running state owned companies are better. They are not, because they always put politics above economy and are easily blackmailed by worker unions, each every government will always replace peoples from management board to their palls and loyalty and not competence is the most important reason of such choices. Such system is destined to be corrupt, because state owned property will never be treated like private one.

I will answer about popular draft in other thread, I don't want to spam this one.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:37 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Helena wrote:

They don't and shouldn't Smile That's just why it's better not to sell them anything important.

You still need to proof that politicians running state owned companies are better. They are not, because they always put politics above economy and are easily blackmailed by worker unions, each every government will always replace peoples from management board to their palls and loyalty and not competence is the most important reason of such choices. Such system is destined to be corrupt, because state owned property will never be treated like private one.

I will answer about popular draft in other thread, I don't want to spam this one.

In most countries it happens so, but after a certain level of developement in the society, like in Sweden f.e., the state manages the enterprises and companies really fine, they have the least percentage of poor people according to any kind of surveys.
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:09 pm

The best option maybe would be companies in private hands, but so the hands would be Estonian. Foreign owners may not know the that competent in Estonia but the local businessmen should be more in touch with the situation. Like SLK (Saaremaa Ship Company).

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:20 pm

Kiskun wrote:

In most countries it happens so, but after a certain level of developement in the society, like in Sweden f.e., the state manages the enterprises and companies really fine, they have the least percentage of poor people according to any kind of surveys.

This would be too deep conclusions that because state owned companies there is less poor people. First of all, also many Swedish companies is in private hands. Swedish society have strange ability of acceptance of very high taxes. Even if this is unprofitable to run big company in this country, many businessman decided to stay over there. One needs to mention that these companies developed before politicians installed high taxation. IKEA which was created later moved to Netherlands while, private owner lives in Switzerland as I read. Soon Muslim emigrant will turn this system in to ashes anyway, they have different mentality than natives.

I heard recently about of some corruption affair with Swedish ministers, so this is problem in Sweden as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:22 pm

Hypno wrote:
The best option maybe would be companies in private hands, but so the hands would be Estonian. Foreign owners may not know the that competent in Estonia but the local businessmen should be more in touch with the situation. Like SLK (Saaremaa Ship Company).

This would be good if Estonian people would be active on this field however for a company itself there is no difference since foreign investor always employ local experts.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:21 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Kiskun wrote:

In most countries it happens so, but after a certain level of developement in the society, like in Sweden f.e., the state manages the enterprises and companies really fine, they have the least percentage of poor people according to any kind of surveys.

This would be too deep conclusions that because state owned companies there is less poor people. First of all, also many Swedish companies is in private hands. Swedish society have strange ability of acceptance of very high taxes. Even if this is unprofitable to run big company in this country, many businessman decided to stay over there. One needs to mention that these companies developed before politicians installed high taxation. IKEA which was created later moved to Netherlands while, private owner lives in Switzerland as I read. Soon Muslim emigrant will turn this system in to ashes anyway, they have different mentality than natives.

I heard recently about of some corruption affair with Swedish ministers, so this is problem in Sweden as well.

But still uncomparably small corruption compared to ANY OTHER country in the word despite of Finland.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:01 pm

There was recently an interview with Mart in "Rzeczpospolita" daily . He advised Polish politicians to follow Estonian model of liberal reforms and rejected thesis that only in small states like Estonia such program might be successful.
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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:33 pm

I respect him, his knowledge and point of view.
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PostSubject: Re: Mart Laar   Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:08 am

I have just read a lot about his work and it is fantastical. "Little country that could".

Browsing in this topic I found many interesting things which really kept my mouth opened.
I didn't know that the dream that "the renamed parties of the former communist nomenklatura never returned to power in Estonia and Czech Republic" came true in the mentioned countries! WOW! Ehh, and which are the most successful ex-communist countries? tongue
Then this anti-communism we have here isn't so foundless as some socialist-voters think.
Even we are kept in darkness, me too only got to know this because of browsing the internet in the middle of the night in the topic. So how should we await from the society to be up-to-date and bring responsible decisions?

Rzeczpospolita, (and others) I wonder how are such things in Poland. (In case if you could understand what I am saying at 3:06 am)
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