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 Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy

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towito

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PostSubject: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:23 pm

Im wonder why this topic is so important for Putin? Thera are many missles in Kaliningrad why Poland cannot put some on their own teritory?
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:45 pm

towito wrote:
Im wonder why this topic is so important for Putin? Thera are many missles in Kaliningrad why Poland cannot put some on their own teritory?

Your neighbour can build anything in his garden, but if he builds something that potentionaly can be used against you, I'm pretty sure you won't be very happy.
Theoreticaly, anyone can do whatever he wants to do. Poland can build anything on its territory, but in this case, the US are going to build a part of their system on Poland's territory, and Putin considers it a threat to Russian national security. This new anti-missile shield destroys current strategic balance of nuclear armaments and provokes new armrace. Do you need it?
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:13 pm

We need nukes more Smile
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:20 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
We need nukes more Smile

Make love, not war! flower flower flower
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bobhatersfriend



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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:50 pm



Last edited by bobhatersfriend on Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:31 am

Quote :
Make love, not war!

I agree with that

Quote :
This new anti-missile shield destroys current strategic balance of nuclear armaments and provokes new armrace. Do you need it?

Hm. ten missiles = then ten new tackitcal nukes whats the diffrence if Russia has hundreds of them Question And i'm pretty sure some of them are aimed at targets in Poland. Sad Maybe Russia should build own NMD system ? It would be much more adeqate move then starting new amrace. Idea
And this missles are not filled with pluton Laughing
Secondly if Russia would like destroy missile base it, it would be matter of few minutes (aircraft and missiles) so i dont think its against Russia becouse of location. Better for this purpose would be location f. e. in UK.

only thing i dont like in NMD is that the USA will have their own piece of soil in Poland and they will be able f.e. to put prisoners from guantanamo confused

thank you for replay cheers
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:01 am

NowhereMan wrote:
Rzeczpospolita wrote:
We need nukes more Smile

Make love, not war! flower flower flower

Lets Russia give us an example an resign from own ones. Laughing

In my opinion all this fuss about missile system have the same intention as recent clashes in Estonia. I mean to show Russian society that enemy is outside and turn their attention from domestic problems. Putin know very well that he has no such influences to stop this project if both interested sides agree.

From what I have heard exterritorialy that US obtained for their bases in Romania is excluded by Polish government
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:27 pm

Quote :
Lets Russia give us an example an resign from own ones. Laughing


Good idea, but I prefer Putin to mr. Bush and Kachinski bros. Laughing

Quote :

In my opinion all this fuss about missile system have the same intention as recent clashes in Estonia. I mean to show Russian society that enemy is outside and turn their attention from domestic problems.

You can tell the same about every country in the world. But I'd like to remind you that russian society isn't a flock of sheep tended by guileful shepherd Pu - it is people able to think.

Quote :

Putin know very well that he has no such influences to stop this project if both interested sides agree.

Okay, silently draw the target on your foreheads and enjoy yourselves.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:25 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

You can tell the same about every country in the world. But I'd like to remind you that russian society isn't a flock of sheep tended by guileful shepherd Pu - it is people able to think.

All societies are easy to manipulate, just seems that they really think. Usually they just repeat somebody's else propaganda.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:55 pm

Quote :
In my opinion all this fuss about missile system have the same intention as recent clashes in Estonia. I mean to show Russian society that enemy is outside and turn their attention from domestic problems.

Besieged fortress syndrom I supouse, like in poland (kaczyńscy) but much, much stronger + imperial ambitions (still alive) = irrational behaoviur. Do you remember hunting for polish diplomatists in Moscow?

Quote :
From what I have heard exterritorialy that US obtained for their bases in Romania is excluded by Polish government

Im glad to read it Smile pp

[/quote]You can tell the same about every country in the world. But I'd like to remind you that russian society isn't a flock of sheep tended by guileful shepherd Pu - it is people able to think
[/quote]

I think most of Russians are normal and honest people even Putin seems to be nice man (once i saw film about him) but Russia is to isolated (mainly becosuse of it "proud") and i think many of your countrymen might have unsuitable view of situation.

American troops in Poland give our country in 99% safety. And USA is not danger for us becosue it is far far away.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:16 pm

In Poland Kaczynski’s talking about internal threats. But for sure they did not start this rhetoric. The first was “Gazeta Wyborcza” daily with supported UW and defended SLD. Almost legendary threat of “prawicowych oszolomow” (right wing nuts) which basically could be translated to “everybody who disagree with them”. What Kaczynski bros are doing is simply counteraction according to third law of sir Isaac Newton. Wink

Kremlin labeled all opposition in Russia to be foreign agents. Kaczynski’s never used such rhetoric.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:12 am

Quote :
In Poland Kaczynski’s talking about internal threats.

Well i have hear him (PM) talking about some forces which are unhappy becouse of Poland's economic growth. Of course this statement was without any concret but we can guess it is about some countries (maybe Germany) or international plot. In Poland thera are (in his opinion) internal forces -"satans" whom faces we can see on tv. Smile - lack of any concrets too. But Kacziński is of course more democratic then Putin.

[quote] What Kaczynski bros are doing is simply counteraction according to third law of sir Isaac Newton [quote]

Im neutral about Gazeta Wyborcza, sometimes i read it sometimes not and frankly I don't know it's political vision Embarassed
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:38 pm

towito wrote:


Well i have hear him (PM) talking about some forces which are unhappy becouse of Poland's economic growth. Of course this statement was without any concret but we can guess it is about some countries (maybe Germany) or international plot. In Poland thera are (in his opinion) internal forces -"satans" whom faces we can see on tv. Smile - lack of any concrets too. But Kacziński is of course more democratic then Putin.

I have no doubt that he meant our opposition. Kaczynski's are democrats, Putin is not, there are no middle positions over this issue in my opinion. People are just uninterested to follow political polemics in other countries, the US is primary example of brutal and dirty battles.

Quote :

Im neutral about Gazeta Wyborcza, sometimes i read it sometimes not and frankly I don't know it's political vision Embarassed

To know their line and political background, methods that they are ready to use to achieve their goal is the key to understand transformation process in Poland. Today we have few titles describing these circles:
- soft version "Gazeta Wyborcza, poczatki i okolice" S. Remuszko
- medium "Michnikowszczyzna" R. Ziemkiewicz
- hardcore "Rzeczpospolita Klamców" W. Lysiak

I would compare their views to Ft. Rydzyk media outlets, just opposite pole.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:54 pm

Quote :
I have no doubt that he meant our opposition. Kaczynski's are democrats, Putin is not, there are no middle positions over this issue in my opinion.

So.. hmm.. then Putin is right when he says there's no (pure) democracy in the world(?)... Or you only compared Pu and the twins?
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:26 pm

NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I have no doubt that he meant our opposition. Kaczynski's are democrats, Putin is not, there are no middle positions over this issue in my opinion.

So.. hmm.. then Putin is right when he says there's no (pure) democracy in the world(?)... Or you only compared Pu and the twins?

What Putin say is demagogy to justify actions of his administration in Russia. This rhetoric was used by communist before. "and in the US they are beating blacks "

Each country have its own system and nobody is really able to tell which is more democratic. This is why talking about democracy we usually understand, free elections, freedom of expression and respect to the private property. "Pure democracy" means nothing.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:22 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
NowhereMan wrote:
Quote :
I have no doubt that he meant our opposition. Kaczynski's are democrats, Putin is not, there are no middle positions over this issue in my opinion.

So.. hmm.. then Putin is right when he says there's no (pure) democracy in the world(?)... Or you only compared Pu and the twins?

What Putin say is demagogy to justify actions of his administration in Russia. This rhetoric was used by communist before. "and in the US they are beating blacks "

Each country have its own system and nobody is really able to tell which is more democratic. This is why talking about democracy we usually understand, free elections, freedom of expression and respect to the private property. "Pure democracy" means nothing.

Rzeczpospolita, are you russian? your grandma maybe? I'm beggining to like you Laughing

Anyway, I agree with you here. But I'm a complete demagogue so could you commet this
Quote :
All societies are easy to manipulate, just seems that they really think. Usually they just repeat somebody's else propaganda.


I mean, aren't you thinking yourself? or whose propaganda do you repeat? Or we just choose from "different propagandas"? it makes me sad Crying or Very sad
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:21 pm

Quote :
I mean, aren't you thinking yourself?

I do my best Laughing but for sure to some extend I'm just repeating things that somebody convinced myself to. The point is that people whom bother to think for their own consist handful minority in every society. This is huge weakness of democracy and direct reason why mainstream media are so powerful.

I had German grandma, so wrong direction Smile
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:43 pm

Quote :
I had German grandma, so wrong direction Smile

what about grandpa? Laughing

Here's another question for you: if you were the president of Russia (right now) what would you do in this situation? I don't feel that what Ivanov and Putin say/do is absolutly right but I do understand their logic and don't see any other way out of this at the moment... what would you do?
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:18 pm

NowhereMan wrote:

Here's another question for you: if you were the president of Russia (right now) what would you do in this situation?

Immediately surrender to Poland! lol!

Seriously, if my political background would be the same as Putin's, I would never agree to be president. It would be a waste of time to work with people that I could not trust even a bit.

Otherwise I would invite group of expert that I consider to be competent and give them a free hand to liberalize Russian economy. There are plenty of open minded people but their skills aren't explored enough in their countries of origin, because populist politicians, elected by above mentioned societies, aren't willing to risk its jobs with ideas of unpopular reforms. President in Russia don't need to know everything, he should be like a manager in NHL hockey team. Before I would order to privatize all state owned companies I would kick out all politicians from management board and replace them by real managers with clear goal to achieve, I mean privatization . The key to success would be fight with corruption.
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towito

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:09 am

Rzeczpospolita thx for this titles I've never heard about it.

Quote :
Each country have its own system and nobody is really able to tell which is more democratic. This is why talking about democracy we usually understand, free elections, freedom of expression and respect to the private property. "Pure democracy" means nothing.

I would add existing of real oposition, becosuse oposition is natural being.
Democracy shows that everybody can be replaced and there is no place for cult of individual. If less democracy then more cult of indivudal I would say. - f.e. Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro.

Quote :
All societies are easy to manipulate, just seems that they really think. Usually they just repeat somebody's else propaganda.

speciali if it is society of homo sovieticus

Quote :
Here's another question for you: if you were the president of Russia (right now) what would you do in this situation?

I agree with Rzeczpospolita I would add - efficient law, worship for own citizens, and democracy becouse if Russia will be deomocratic it will not be a threat for other democratic countries. Like it is said two democratic countries never struggled along ( z sobą).
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bobhatersfriend



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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:51 pm



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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:41 pm

It's sure that if Russia would have the same kind of democracy that we or some else European country has, Russia would fall apart. There are so many different little nations who would gladly found their own countries if the authorities would be too gentle. In my opinion, if Putin wants to keep Russia as one, his only chance is to act the way he does.
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Communist Gipsy



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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:03 pm

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Communist Gipsy



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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:03 pm

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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Why russian goverment is against the "missle defence sy   Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:03 pm

in his place I would get rid of none-Russian populated territories which are unwilling to be under Moscow like Chechnya. This chunk of land brought to Russia only a lot of problems.

Generally I think that post-Soviet society in Russia indeed is not ready to live in democratic country. However younger people could do it, Russians after all don't belong to Arabic or Mongol civilizations. Neither to Latin and that is why they will struggle Laughing
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