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 Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army

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Helena

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:12 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
Helena wrote:

Wouldn't you wish too wipe us off if you were Putin? We have caused so much problems with our fractiousness that there is no point in saving such people. It would be much easier to deport some of us to Siberia, kill the ones who were left over and take in people from Russia. Russia could keep our land for ever and everyone would be happy.
No, I would not. Your perspective is very Eesti-centric.
Of course they would do the same with other small conquered nations.

Quote :
I have made all my arguments clear and have nothing to add. What I would like to know is the attitude of Estonian population in general to professional army. Do you know any surveys have been made on this issue?
The surveys have been made and about 70-80% of Estonians support popular draft.

towito wrote:
3 months of tome service would be enough to give some backgrounds about weapons and using it I think it would be necessery nobody knows how future will be looking like. And along this well equiped, modern proffesional army. Both systems would be good I think.
I basicly agree but I think that there should be some more months to work over and learn to act in bigger units. The bigger practical trainings also take place later. If we keep the time too short, soldiers will forget soon what they have learnt.

I found a good text about Estonian self-defence written by a renowned security expert of America: http://www.postimees.ee/011206/esileht/siseuudised/231824.php .
I'd like to translate it but I don't have time at the moment.
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Estonski



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:25 pm

Ive read oppinions of people of the estonian military.
Professional army is a bull i agree.
Now, popular draft, maybe.

About war with Russia.
We would get overran in few days.
Our situation can be compared to Egypt when they had the 6-day war with Israel.

Israel bombed most of their air force before they could even takeoff.
Then that followed a 5 day ground conflict that brought small casualties to both sides, but basically Israel overran them.

The Russian technology vs. estonian technology is like a huge elephant and an ant.

Russia has planes that cant be seen by radars. If they use those, we can forget about any radar systems. Our military bases will be bombed, they cut off electricity from Narva (most of our energy comes from there), they bomb our cities to the ground. If it is winter, people will die from hunger.

Many people will escape to other countries, including the ones supposed to be drafted. By the time we are occupied, NATO makes a meeting and talks about the war in estonia blalblalba.

Then it makes a few warnings to russia... and then its over for a free estonia.

So simple it is.

Or russia drops a nuke on tallinn. No one does a flying fuck.
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:51 pm

And then we can throw some snowballs at you Smile
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Estonski



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:05 pm

Oh no, then the Beslan hostage drama will be repeated hundreds of times..
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NowhereMan

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:15 pm

Estonski wrote:
Oh no, then the Beslan hostage drama will be repeated hundreds of times..

???
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:51 pm

Estonski wrote:
Ive read oppinions of people of the estonian military.
Professional army is a bull i agree.
Now, popular draft, maybe.

About war with Russia.
We would get overran in few days.
Our situation can be compared to Egypt when they had the 6-day war with Israel.

Israel bombed most of their air force before they could even takeoff.
Then that followed a 5 day ground conflict that brought small casualties to both sides, but basically Israel overran them.

The Russian technology vs. estonian technology is like a huge elephant and an ant.

Russia has planes that cant be seen by radars. If they use those, we can forget about any radar systems. Our military bases will be bombed, they cut off electricity from Narva (most of our energy comes from there), they bomb our cities to the ground. If it is winter, people will die from hunger.

Many people will escape to other countries, including the ones supposed to be drafted. By the time we are occupied, NATO makes a meeting and talks about the war in estonia blalblalba.

Then it makes a few warnings to russia... and then its over for a free estonia.

So simple it is.

Or russia drops a nuke on tallinn. No one does a flying fuck.

Suur Töll will help you Estonians Wink
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svybski



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PostSubject: keep on defending   Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:33 am

Hypno wrote:
I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily.

no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..

you will always support from the friendly countries, together we could win, right? Smile
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:52 pm

telkola wrote:
Hypno wrote:
I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily.

no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..

you will always support from the friendly countries, together we could win, right? Smile

We should rather keep on living peacefully and solve problems through discussing them.
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svybski



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PostSubject: true peace   Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:51 pm

Kiskun wrote:

We should rather keep on living peacefully and solve problems through discussing them.

no, defending is more peaceful than not defending. If you not defend your country, you actually maintain war-like situation by giving possibility to the bad/evil/low-life people to enslave you. Only after freedom is achieved, you have a real peace.

if discussions (politics) fail, you have to defend. If you lay down your arms, you fail your own people and that is the most embarrassing thing of all.

as history teaches us, russia (the country) have not respected peace, but im sure that most people in europe/asia (including those russians, who are intelligent) do respect peace and peacuful discussions you mentioned.

we havent seen that in chechnya and many parts of russia, where freedom is suppressed by evil forces.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:53 pm

telkola wrote:
Hypno wrote:
I don't want to spend 8 months of my life for a hopeless cause (face it, if Russia would want to conquer us in three days, they would be able to do it really easily.

no man, keep on defending! you can always have guerrillas in the forests and wait for NATO or UN troops.. and keep on resisting! what ever is the price. There is no good reason to not to fight..

Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible

You can count on them cheers
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svybski



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PostSubject: not all UN   Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:26 am

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible

You can count on them cheers

dont over-generalize or stereotypize.. it is not like all UN troops do that.

and this has nothing to do with protecting Estonia.
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:49 pm

telkola wrote:
Rzeczpospolita wrote:

Three things that UN troops are known from:
- raping African woman and girls
- allowing Srebrenica massacre
- smuggling what is only possible

You can count on them cheers

dont over-generalize or stereotypize.. it is not like all UN troops do that.

Aye, stereotypes are baaad. No
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:29 pm

I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions.
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Kiskun

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:36 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions.

I had possibility, but I missed it.
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«Trayus»

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:03 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions.

No, I haven't. silent
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:26 pm

Very good film, I recommend.
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svybski



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PostSubject: yes i have   Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:26 pm

Rzeczpospolita wrote:
I don't want to say that all blue helmets are degenerates. Do you watched Serbian/French film "No Man's Land", shows perfectly the mentality of people standing behind UN missions.

yes I have watched. Really good film!!
for me it is the best southern european movie (expect some italian porn.. umm.. I mean: horror movies )...

ok, ok... I understand what you mean. UN troops have this "quality problem" yes.

but the original idea was that, eventhough estonia (or any ex-ussr country or Finland etc.) cant totally defend itself against big army, we (small countries) can protect ourselves together. NATO is one way to achieve mutual protection..
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:17 pm

Everything dependent from the UN has such quality problems and what is more lack of will to archive aimed goals. But this is another matter Wink

I will open a thread about good films from different countries. Very Happy
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matrixx



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:31 pm

Coming from a different thread, I will clarify my view of having or not having an army.

Basic reason for war nowadays is economical. You want to weaken your opponent's situation, while improving yours (crusades are a thing of past). Politics give an excuse for war - be it dethroning a dictator or protecting some lesser national group - but those are only excuses. If there's nothing to be gained from war it won't happen - there are other means of pressurizing countries also.

About an army and required conscription. Large nations can get away with an all-voluntary professional army - there are enough people to volunteer. Small countries don't have usuall enough volunteers - so they must resort to other means. That's why I say Swiss way would be the way to go for Estonia. Small professional army core for participating in international operations and coordinate local so-called people's army. It's easy to wipe out an army if it is concentrated in few places, but if the entire country is part of the defensive system and in every city/town there are miliraty organizations - consisting of local men - it get's much tougher to subdue them. Estonia could never hope to repel Russia if that would decide to invade us - what we can do is to make it cost a lot. Drive the cost of the war too high and they will retreat or try to find other solutions. Only way to do that, for Estonia, is to have strong militia - non-regular army. I must admit the current system is seriously lacking. We don't have big enough professional army and the militia (Kaitseliit in estonian) is not working good enough due to various political reasons.

The thing about that 'not all are able to be a soldier'. True - in the sense of being a professional soldier, participating in international operations etc. But what excuse would there to be to *not* be able to defend your country? Can you call yourself a man when the first thought about war is how to get away and fast? I doubt it.
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Rzeczpospolita

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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Nov 28, 2007 11:05 pm

matrixx wrote:

Estonia could never hope to repel Russia if that would decide to invade us - what we can do is to make it cost a lot. Drive the cost of the war too high and they will retreat or try to find other solutions.

If Russia would retreat from Estonia, they would become a joke forever. lol! Forget it. Don't you see how they retreating from mountainous Chechnya? How long Soviets sat in mountainous Afghanistan? Cost doesn't matter, they will increase the price of oil and gas exports if necessary. And Estonia is flat.

Quote :
Can you call yourself a man when the first thought about war is how to get away and fast? I doubt it.


How I see this. The duty of Estonian people is to preserve the existence of the nation in the best possible shape. Estonian man are obligated to stand up against enemy if there is a chance for victory. For example Russia attacked and NATO counter attacked, or you have been invaded by Latvia Laughing . If there is no reasonable chance for victory, they should abandon military opposition. To sacrifice life and future of your family without sense is poor business. Better wait for proper opportunity to get rid of occupant and cultivate national tradition in the meantime.
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matrixx



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:22 am

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

If Russia would retreat from Estonia, they would become a joke forever. lol! Forget it. Don't you see how they retreating from mountainous Chechnya? How long Soviets sat in mountainous Afghanistan? Cost doesn't matter, they will increase the price of oil and gas exports if necessary. And Estonia is flat.

As I understand one of the main reasons for keeping Chechnya is oil. So I guess even with such losses it's profitable. Estonia really has nothing really valuable for russians - except some harbours and a little bit of brown-coal that nobody else wants to use. Besides, Estonia is more useful for Russia for propaganda purposes - you know, foreign enemy image and such (which itself is quite ridiculous to anybody except official russian media).

Rzeczpospolita wrote:

How I see this. The duty of Estonian people is to preserve the existence of the nation in the best possible shape. Estonian man are obligated to stand up against enemy if there is a chance for victory. For example Russia attacked and NATO counter attacked, or you have been invaded by Latvia Laughing . If there is no reasonable chance for victory, they should abandon military opposition. To sacrifice life and future of your family without sense is poor business. Better wait for proper opportunity to get rid of occupant and cultivate national tradition in the meantime.

Fair enough. Still - I'd never want to see another 1940. year scenario repeating itself. Losing your country without firing a shot - that's shameful. So I still stay by my opinion - first reaction should be to scramble to defend your country. If truly the situation is hopeless later and another death would mean nothing, then yes further resistance would be useless.
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Hypno
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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Thu Nov 29, 2007 1:33 pm

We should train ninjas!

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volmer



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:20 pm

if you defend something that truly matters to you yo fight better than 10 people attacking something they don't care about.
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Estonski



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PostSubject: Re: Jürgen Ligi and proffesional army   Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:24 pm

Jürgen Ligi is a fucking asshole.
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svybski



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PostSubject: russian war costs   Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:22 am

matrixx wrote:


As I understand one of the main reasons for keeping Chechnya is oil.

they estimate that they will have 10 kilo barrels of oil per day which means about 1 million dollars per day. (10 kilos is an average within 10 years, that s the all oil capacity... I just divided oil resources & 10 year estimate with the days)

costs are close to 20% and estimates are typically too good to be true... It is realistically to assume that they will have 5 kilo barrels per day and therefore about 400,000 dollars revenue per day ((50% is quite typical ultima recovery (URR) but it can be 55% and sometimes as high as 80% is possible depending on the oil field charasteristics))

how much it costs to have an army in chechnya per day?

mayby they have like 45,000 soldiers there. I googled that very wuickly somewhere, didnt check is the number a correct one (http://www.infoplease.com/spot/chechnyatime1.html)

for me, it looks like they can use that oil money to keep the soldies in the chechnya, but they dont benefit so much if they have to use a lot of missiles the costs will rise too much. and the withdrawal becomes better option...

I dont think that chechnya will be part of russia, at least after 10 years they dont even have any oil left.... why bother to be there if there is nothing to steal?? (compare to US occupation of iraq... and actually, also US occupation of austria in ww2, the same thing... there was oil in austria you know....)
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